NoDoji...

Quote from kut2k2:

I'm not NoDoji but there is a general answer:

It takes as long as it takes for you to get a technical trading plan that you trust.

I've lost track of how many posters I've seen post something like "I have a great plan but I just can't stick to it."

Rule #1: stop being self-delusional.

If they were really convinced that they had a great plan, they would stick to it automatically.

People don't stick to a trading plan because they don't trust it. They don't trust it because their subconscious is telling them it's untrustworthy. Which means it either isn't really a great plan or they haven't seen enough evidence to be convinced it's a great plan.

Rule #2: find a truly good trading plan that you trust implicitly.

Everything falls in line after that.

People should not rush past this post.
 
Quote from Datradr:


It makes perfect sense..although everyone has trouble actually carring out that plan.

Almost everyone doesn't have trouble carrying out the plan, simply because almost everyone doesn't have a plan. Those who have borrowed someone else's plan have trouble sticking to it because they are not convinced enough from prior testing, if any, that it works in the first place. Their mind isn't receptive to what the plan requires them to do, even though it seems wonderful, and actually may be wonderful. There's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path, as every Neo must find out before becoming The One.

Gringo
 
Quote from Datradr:

In a sense to be great you must not care about the trade...which is hard cuz its like going to a movie and not caring how it ends.

Actually it's more like going to a game and not caring who wins.
 
I'm not pretending that I'm as able to do this anywhere near the extent I would like to but success in most areas of life, including trading,revolves around being able to Plan The Work And Work The Plan.

It is so easy to admire the brilliant improvisations in life where people adjust on the spot and avert a loss or increase a profit but long haul it costs money.
 
I'm not pretending that I'm as able to do this anywhere near the extent I would like to but success in most areas of life, including trading,revolves around being able to Plan The Work And Work The Plan. It is so easy to admire the brilliant improvisations in life where people adjust on the spot and avert a loss or increase a profit but long haul it costs money.

Good post ND.
 
Quote from Datradr:

I found my biggest enemy was 1) Overtading(mostly out of boredom), 2) averaging ( outcome usually get back to break even or get crushed cuz I doubled down), 3) not letting winners run (very commom, the cash register sound is the best!!

In a sense to be great you must not care about the trade...

My trading plan doesn't allow any of the above. I violated rules enough times as a noob and even after I had a solid plan, that I programmed myself to instinctively sit back in my chair and place my hands in my lap as soon as I even contemplate an out of plan trade.
 
That's great advice. In my early days I used track my pulse and only "allow" myself to trade if my pulse was under 65. That helped getting the nervousness under control and naturally reduced the number of stupid errors.

Ultimately, automation was key for me, but that's probably a personality match.
 
Quote from NoDoji:

There are probably many traders who can trade successfully without a plan, but I found out the hard way that I'm not one of them.

Trading without an exact plan and thinking while trading was, for me, a disaster. It was the cause of all my significant losses and it was the reason I cut winners short. It was the cause of hesitation followed by chasing entries at poor prices, and the cause of jumping the gun in order to keep my stop loss smaller.

I realize now more than ever that Geez was the rarest sort of trader. He had a specific plan based on statistics compiled over time, and the ability to trade it manually like a machine. As soon as he got a valid signal, he placed his order, always adhering to appropriate size based on the R:R. It was amazing how consistent he was at simply trading every valid signal without allowing the result of any trade to influence the next trade in any way, and how he could just leave his trade alone until either the stop or target order was filled.

When I first met him and watched him trade, I thought he was pretty dense because he'd allow trades to come within a penny of his profit target and then stop him out for the full loss. I asked him why he didn't move his stop to break even or just take profit a few pennies less than target if price stalled right there.

And he told me something that I couldn't get my head around at the time because I didn't understand what good trading was about. He told me that his trading is based on specific statistics that demonstrated net profitability over time and if he were to start messing with his stops and targets it would lead him down a slippery slope and skew the odds of his plan.

Even now it's a struggle for me every day to ignore my thoughts about setups. With few exceptions, the hard right edge always feels dangerous and my dear brain steps right up to protect me with thoughts such as "let's watch how price reacts first, then go from there" or "hmmm, it's starting to look a bit weak, why not move your stop to break even just in case".

I've learned that my thoughts are nothing more than protective mechanisms trying to protect me from potential risk. Well, every trade involves risk and trading in general involves uncertainty, and I know from statistical analysis that if I simply trade what I see according to my plan no matter what I think, the outcome of every sufficient series of trades will always be positive (barring a black swan event or technical issues beyond my control).

(A "sufficient" series of trades for me is 10 trades.)

Great comment and insight No Doji. In time, I believe that many good traders eventually become intuitive (AKA unconscious competence). Plans can be specific or general - enter when this bar appears (specific) or trade with the trend of the sector ( principle). Perhaps in time, you will revisit what you wrote here.

One trick I used is to play classical music while I traded to turn off the fearing and thinking sides. Focus or flow is important in many great pursuits. Now I don't need that crutch any more but I still like music at times. I know the state I need to make money and can go there directly.

Years ago a big loss took a month to get over completely. Now it is rare that it bothers me for more than an hour if it bothers me at all. If it does bother me I stop for the day. I know one trader ( whom I believe) who claims 1 minute to lose the emotion or he exits the trade.

For me, all testing and thinking about planning is ultimately about the trading mind and confidence. When you master your trading self, you will no longer need a plan per sec IMO.
 
Quote from dbphoenix:

Actually it's more like going to a game and not caring who wins.

That is perfectly said. Caring is simply the mind popping in again and stepping out of flow.


a quote from
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/aug/10/stop-minding-psychology-oliver-burkeman

"Part-way through this particular talk," writes Jim Dreaver, who was present, "Krishnamurti suddenly paused, leaned forward and said, almost conspiratorially, 'Do you want to know what my secret is?' " (There are several accounts of this event; details vary.) Krishnamurti rarely spoke in such personal terms, and the audience was electrified, Dreaver recalls. "Almost as though we were one body we sat up… I could see people all around me lean forward, their ears straining and their mouths slowly opening in hushed anticipation." Then Krishnamurti, "in a soft, almost shy voice", said: "You see, I don't mind what happens."
 
Quote from kut2k2:

I'm not NoDoji but there is a general answer:

It takes as long as it takes for you to get a technical trading plan that you trust.

I've lost track of how many posters I've seen post something like "I have a great plan but I just can't stick to it."

Rule #1: stop being self-delusional.

If they were really convinced that they had a great plan, they would stick to it automatically.

People don't stick to a trading plan because they don't trust it. They don't trust it because their subconscious is telling them it's untrustworthy. Which means it either isn't really a great plan or they haven't seen enough evidence to be convinced it's a great plan.

Rule #2: find a truly good trading plan that you trust implicitly.

Everything falls in line after that.
Or they simply don't trust themselves to follow their plan!
 
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