No more bullets per sec

Imagine:

Something horrible happens to a stock or even to the whole market and everyone long starts selling. Everyone who is not long starts selling (short) too. What are they selling?

what happens to the futures market when something horrible happens and everyone starts selling and shorting at the same time? it's simply amazing we don't crash once a month.

the market swings from one extreme to the other and will balance itself out when value or lack of value is perceived...
 
Quote from AutomatedTRader:

In simple English PLEASE!!

IF conversions are OK to use, CAN they be used by day traders as long term bullets? Are the Pro firms going to use them for there traders???

DOES anyone out there know how firms will get around this new rule? WHAT are the options???

I know that Assent, Generic and HOLD are promising thier traders that they will have something for them by lnext week that will allow them to short on a down tick. BUt no one is talking about it. DOES anyone know whats cooking??

Nothing is going to happen next week, for any of the firms mentioned, unless the SEC gives an 11th hour reprieve thur night.

A forward conversion is a married put strategy with a longer time horizon. The problem is that unless there is some risk in the options strategy (different strikes) , which can be costly..... they essentially are the same thing and will not be allowed.

I think that the best hope for shorting with a downtick is when they get rid of the uptick rule in liquid stocks and make NYSE more like NAZ.

Banker
 
Quote from truncheon:



what happens to the futures market when something horrible happens and everyone starts selling and shorting at the same time? it's simply amazing we don't crash once a month.

the market swings from one extreme to the other and will balance itself out when value or lack of value is perceived...

Ah, but shorting a derivative is just writing a contract! That is different than selling something you don't own. If the contract is exercised and at *that* point you need to sell something you don't own (to make delivery according to the terms of the contract) then you must borrow or buy it.

If I am buying puts all day long and building a massive "short" position then the market maker is building a massive "long" position in those puts by writing them. The MM will want to lay of that risk by shorting stock, but guess what? With a real time stock loan market his ability to do that will be limited. That will result in a higher premium which will reduce my incentive as a put buyer. So we see that real time stock loan corrects unwarranted dumps in derivative markets too.
 
Quote from shneed:

I wonder if there are any exchanges that trade equities throughout the world that allow shorting on downtick.


shneed

i suppose there are markets somewhere in world but are they liquid?
what kind of responses did you get?
thx
charles
 
Bear raids? How about bull raids? Naz 5k Dow 12k? so mom and pop buying junk on that level. Get rid of Up tick rules. Beleive me there wont be more selling or shorting on a reasonablelevel on the indexes. NAZ 500 DOW 5000- at that level i wont short i might get long.
 
Quote from osx:



Ah, but shorting a derivative is just writing a contract! That is different than selling something you don't own. If the contract is exercised and at *that* point you need to sell something you don't own (to make delivery according to the terms of the contract) then you must borrow or buy it.

If I am buying puts all day long and building a massive "short" position then the market maker is building a massive "long" position in those puts by writing them. The MM will want to lay of that risk by shorting stock, but guess what? With a real time stock loan market his ability to do that will be limited. That will result in a higher premium which will reduce my incentive as a put buyer. So we see that real time stock loan corrects unwarranted dumps in derivative markets too.


OSX,

Are you saying that taking away the uptick rule will never happen?

thanks,

wercurna
 
Quote from Rod Shaft:



I really hope this is true. The uptick rule is incredibly stupid. Still, 2 1/2 months without the ability to short without upticks would still suck. I don't blame the SEC for cracking down on bullets though. Allowing people to break a rule (regardless of how stupid that rule is) just because they buy bullets is pretty unfair to those who don't have access to bullets. If they just got rid of the uptick rule, we could short when we wanted and not have to waste our money on bullets either. It would also be one step closer to a "fair market" too.

Very true, because "bear market raids" will fail if you are selling below the fundamental value of the company. In other words, if the company is good, and you are causing it to be oversold, then eventually you will get crushed. That is what short selling is for, to make the market fair, keep a check on it, and prevent it from becoming a pyramid scheme. Of course, daytraders also don't have the power to make these temporary "raids" except possibly in the absolutely utmost thinnest stocks, and probably not even then. Even stocks that do almost no volume will suddenly have a few huge prints one day depending on what some people or institutions value the company at, and if some powerful daytrader were short 30,000 shares, he'd be crushed in no time. If the market collapses, lets just all blame Jesse Livermore.
 
Quote from osx:



I know there is a popular belief out there that eliminating the uptick rule will create a symmetric marketplace. That is *not* true!

Imagine:

Something horrible happens to a stock or even to the whole market and everyone long starts selling. Everyone who is not long starts selling (short) too. What are they selling?

Supposedly they are selling borrowed stock, but that is *not* true! They are selling "located" stock. Location means that if there are 10,000 shares only to be borrowed anywhere in the world then an infinite number of shares can be shorted intraday-- but only 10,000 shares at a time. So, all but 10,000 shares worth of those short sales are not sales of borrowed stock but rather sales of "vapor stock". The "vapor stock" does not cause any accounting problems if all of those short sales are covered the same day, but the stock price sure does take a whack! (Those short positions that are carried are obviously forced to cover if the stock cannot actually be borrowed, essentially making them day trades as well.)

As long as intraday "vapor stock" is possible then eliminating the uptick rule is a bad idea.

The solution would be to create a situation in which two things hold true, making elimination of the uptick rule feasible:

a) short positions can only be created when an actual loan of stock has been "locked in" -- eliminate "location"
b) stock that is loaned out must be returned before ownership can be transferred

Now when something horrible happens to a stock, the long sellers start selling. However, they cannot sell until they have recalled any loaned out stock per (b) above, forcing those short sellers to cover. Presumably the new owner of the stock will also sell long if the market continues to plummet, again recalling the stock if it has been loaned out in the interim, forcing yet another short seller to cover. Finally, no short seller would be able to create a position unless there is actual free stock that is not changing ownership.

Practically speaking, and without an uptick rule, short sellers as a group would not be able to hold a combined position larger than the combined position of stock held by people willing to wait it out with a long position. THAT is a symmetric marketplace.

Of course this requires something that does not currently exist: a real-time stock loan marketplace. Incidentally, individual investors would loan stock under this model-- not large clearing firms (etc). An individual would then earn the return on the loan and the individual would decide when to recall the stock (presumably to sell it). Short sellers would lock in a loan before selling short and be forced to cover if the stock holder decides to recall. One could envision contracts where higher interest rates are paid to borrow stock in exchange for a guarantee that it will not be recalled for a certain period of time.

Isn't this what the "hard to borrow" list is for?
 
Quote from wercurna:




OSX,

Are you saying that taking away the uptick rule will never happen?

thanks,

wercurna

Well, consider this: the rule was just implemented in Japan.

I don't think it is going away soon.
 
Quote from I Missed Boat:



Isn't this what the "hard to borrow" list is for?

Hard to borrow is not relevant for a day trade since borrowing is not relevant for a day trade. That is the loophole that the uptick rule closes (in a bad, too restrictive way).

If you short and then cover huge amounts of a hard or impossible to borrow stock that is *locatable* then nobody will be the wiser. Of course some trading firms probably don't allow this even though it is legal. Location is much different from "hard to borrow".

Trust me, at least the huge traders are playing the short side of hard to borrow stocks constantly.

If you become a member of a service like www.stock-borrow.com then you can see which hard to borrow stocks are locatable. MANY of them are, even if only for a few thousand shares. Even if those stocks can't be borrowed, they can be legally day traded on the short side.
 
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