NO BS Day Trading (order flow course) - Worthwhile or worthless?
- Thread starter Howard
- Start date
I mainly scalp in CL w/ 5 ticks stop & my trades are very fast (around 1-2min) & target predetermined. I currently start to work to embed my runner w/ my scalper & all my tools are still at the scalper level (10s). We are completely at different views hence my set ups might not fit w/ your method & time frames.
1) I use DOM immediately before & after entry
2) I use market depth to monitor level of buy/sell resting orders on book
3) I use bid/ask volume setting up in a way so when market orders being hit, it will show unmistakably.
4) I use volume profile w/ variable time frames to see concentration of unfortunate people.
5) I don't use footprint whatsoever. It tends to cloudy all other information which I get through the 4s above in a simple way.
That's as much I can elaborate. Think about it then you will see the key is imbalance of orders. And it's a waste of time & resources if trading time frame is long. How long is long? Ain't my problem.
1) I use DOM immediately before & after entry
2) I use market depth to monitor level of buy/sell resting orders on book
3) I use bid/ask volume setting up in a way so when market orders being hit, it will show unmistakably.
4) I use volume profile w/ variable time frames to see concentration of unfortunate people.
5) I don't use footprint whatsoever. It tends to cloudy all other information which I get through the 4s above in a simple way.
That's as much I can elaborate. Think about it then you will see the key is imbalance of orders. And it's a waste of time & resources if trading time frame is long. How long is long? Ain't my problem.
Thank you for your comment, SkyChef. It's generous of you to share as much as you do.
CL is a fairly different market from the ES and more suitable for your trading style.
I'm now reading the BS trading book and I'm already noting some BS comments that I flat out disagree with, but I am learning new things as well.
CL is a fairly different market from the ES and more suitable for your trading style.
I'm now reading the BS trading book and I'm already noting some BS comments that I flat out disagree with, but I am learning new things as well.
Limit orders on the book have a lot of misconceptions about it’s informative usefulness. One thing that is true, is that one has to have the margin to place the order, resting or otherwise.
Given you’ve worked through L. Harris’s material, you have a solid foundation on which to build.
Skepticism has it’s usefulness and it’s place. Most often, when combined with critical thinking, it is quite useful. However, most chronic skeptics never examine the underlying reference points that support their proclivity to be enduring skeptics.
Skepticism can be either advantageous or disadvantageous depending on context.
Orderflow software is just another way to display market data.
At some point in your display of market data from coarse to fine detail, the desire to ‘know’ the degree by which market orders are being entered is quite informative of market turning points.
Also at some point, interpreting volume accurately is extremely informative. In fact, it’s so informative that it is accurate to say that volume leads price always and without exception.
There are other parts to the equation to see the whole picture for those willing to do the work to extract the market’s full offer.
Most will stop at conundrum’s such as lot’s of price movement with low volume or no price movement with large volume when common sense appears to dictate otherwise.
Interpreting volume is a completely different paradigm compared to CW’s interpretation of price action. Since most in the financial industry are inducted in conventional wisdom, the notion of volume leading price is a minority opinion met with chronic skepticism. The concept that there are volume patterns that progress through a sequence of events is also quite foreign.
Tape reading and volume interpretation go hand-in-hand. The easiest way to read a tape is by annotating a chart to draw tapes that build traverses that build channels. Indirectly, diligently doing this causes a continuity of context.
If one is attempting to learn to tape read off the DOM and T&S, although possible, there are easier ways.
Exploring how other trader’s trade from my pov is always beneficial - even in disagreement, insights are available to an open mind.
In closing, orderflow software (and accompanying distinctions) is worthy of consideration and can be an informative piece to the market puzzle.
It’ll all come down to how you apply it.
Can be or is...?
Are you using any particular orderflow software yourself? I've looked briefly into the Jigsaw DOM and it does seem like a huge improvement upon most DOMS (in my case: Ninja's).
As for the book, I'm well into it and find that I already know a lot of the material intuitively already. I've probably picked up a few bits and pieces over the year on the subject although I haven't studied the DOM extensively in isolation...
The author seems to be very insistent on that scalping or order flow trading is the only thing that works and is very dismissive of algorithmic trading, charts or anything that isn't pure order flow trading. I of course flat out disagree with that and find it a bit off putting.
But I will read on keeping an open mind...
As a speck in the beach smaller than a grain of sand I have learned to view a large order to be meaningful.
When a large size prints there is a reason. An institutional trader may be using a systematic signal, or an automated one based on their strategy. There usually is a breakout when I see this order in the time and sales. I wish I could see how and when they scale out...
This is the first thing I have learned about order flow...but I must still use a chart to see structure.
The auction that takes place with the price bouncing back and forth by a tick...sometimes stalling... this seems to be a tip of the iceberg for me...I am close but not there yet. The spoofs and the removal of orders when the numbers flash by are hard to record mentally. Have you noticed all of the action while there are not that many prints? Software can help with this.
Pure DOM scalpers are incredible intuitive traders that capture the HFT's thoughts...lol. I like to read Sprout, Gregg, Callumbus, Mcginnis...and others I cannot think of right now. Callumbus is a master...McGinnis is a street trader...Sprout can "feel" the market and well Gregg he has the experience and discipline needed.
ES
When a large size prints there is a reason. An institutional trader may be using a systematic signal, or an automated one based on their strategy. There usually is a breakout when I see this order in the time and sales. I wish I could see how and when they scale out...
This is the first thing I have learned about order flow...but I must still use a chart to see structure.
The auction that takes place with the price bouncing back and forth by a tick...sometimes stalling... this seems to be a tip of the iceberg for me...I am close but not there yet. The spoofs and the removal of orders when the numbers flash by are hard to record mentally. Have you noticed all of the action while there are not that many prints? Software can help with this.
Pure DOM scalpers are incredible intuitive traders that capture the HFT's thoughts...lol. I like to read Sprout, Gregg, Callumbus, Mcginnis...and others I cannot think of right now. Callumbus is a master...McGinnis is a street trader...Sprout can "feel" the market and well Gregg he has the experience and discipline needed.
ES
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Can be or is...?
The holy grail is within the person in the mirror. ‘Is’ is the realization of this simple fact. ‘Can be’ is for those not quite there yet.
Are you using any particular orderflow software yourself? I've looked briefly into the Jigsaw DOM and it does seem like a huge improvement upon most DOMS (in my case: Ninja's).
I’ve explored OFA, Bookmap and have a lifetime license with Jigsaw. It’s installed on a fresh i7 laptop. I admit to having a quirk in that I started my computing on a Macintosh, went to Windows due to being in a corporate environments and made a return to Aapl with a 2008 mbp. I now have a bunch of Mac gear and find it difficult to return to a windows environment. It’s been difficult to program VBA in a mac environment but the OS is a class above MS . I also do not want to support MS subscription model for bloatware.
I was intrigued with Jigsaw enough to invest in new hardware to support it.
Peter’s training materials offer a lot of value and a beginner in orderflow would receive a lot of benefit from it.
With that said, It’s not in my production environment atm, mainly due to desk space issues. However, I also have the price squawk integration and am looking forward to playing with it when I have the time, focus and larger desk.
My current setup is with two monitors. The setup is to monitor coarse to fine detail as my eyes sweep from left to right. The left monitor has two tabs, one is a tri-pane view of the ES monthly, weekly, daily reviewed prior to the start of a trading day. The other is a tri-pane of ES 30m, 5m and 2m YM.
The tri-panes are maximized to one time-frame at a time. The 5m is the primary window by which annotating and logging are done.
The chart is annotated and used in combination with a paper log by which 21 logical operations are done mentally on each 5m bar and recorded by hand. There are 81 bars to a day (without carryover). This paper log is also consulted with a small 1/2” three-ringed binder that has lookup tables for various volume sequences that have been catalogued to define progression of trend, trend types and turn types. The purpose of this is to 'know that I know' where I am in relation to current trend progression and development.
The right monitor has my broker’s platform which 5 windows arranged in an order that supports visual ‘sweeping’. The DOM is in the center. To the right of the DOM are two T&S streams, 1 unfiltered, the other filtered on 50-100 contracts.
To the left of the DOM are two OTR charts. One is the 5m ES and the other 2m YM.
The jigsaw software would take the place of all the windows in my right monitor with the exception of the OTR charts.
It provides other bells and whistles which I have yet to explore.
So in my environment, determining context requires a simultaneous top-down and bottom-up situational awareness.
My operating points are:
1) be in the market
2) be on the right side of the market
In terms of orderflow software, at the time of purchase, I was looking for something that would distinguish variance in market orders at any given moment. Jigsaw does do this.
As for the book, I'm well into it and find that I already know a lot of the material intuitively already. I've probably picked up a few bits and pieces over the year on the subject although I haven't studied the DOM extensively in isolation...
The author seems to be very insistent on that scalping or order flow trading is the only thing that works and is very dismissive of algorithmic trading, charts or anything that isn't pure order flow trading. I of course flat out disagree with that and find it a bit off putting.
I suppose when anyone has success at something there’s a certain natural attachment that arises. I’m more in the camp of every tool has a purpose and specific circumstances for it’s formal use and it’s creative informal use. Every tool can either be an asset or liability when it comes to extracting the full offer of the market. It all depends on the hands and differentiated minds that wield them.
But I will read on keeping an open mind...
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