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New order behavior - is it due to IB or INET?
- Thread starter sprstpd
- Start date
Quote from sprstpd:
I consider myself to be a small trader and these new rules have already limited my ability to enter trades. I can't wait to see what other future limitations get slapped on me. Suckarama.
I don't think this is true and I don't think you understand the new rules. If you have access to appropriate smart order-routing software, to re-price and to re-submit rejected orders automatically, you shouldn't have a problem. Do you have such access? Can you be more specific about how your ability to enter trades has been compromised? I'm sure that if we can discuss the details, one of us or both of us will learn something valuable, so please explain.
Quote from joeyata1:
since when does inet short on downticks? one thing you must realize and this is a very big flaw with ib is there arca orders are not proactive [emphasis added] and that's a huge huge. what it means if aapls falling i can short the tar out of it using arca's proactive orders as they allow shorting on downticks as either they short it on the downtick are they reroute it out to be shorted. read the 100's of notes here arca on nsdaq seem to allow shorting on downticks. and this is not just on fat naz stocks but they allow it on obscure stocks. now on nyse they don't allow it. ib does not reroute becasue it cost's .0001 per share to do that.your order diappearing has to be a chnage in ib's software
Pardon my ignorance, but what does it actually mean that "arca orders are not proactive?" In other words, what occurs when an order is proactive that does not occur when it is not proactive? If one is an IB client, like me, is there any way of working around whatever problems are presented by this situation?
Any help that anyone can offer here would be greatly appreciated...
Quote from cwb1014:
Pardon my ignorance, but what does it actually mean that "arca orders are not proactive?" In other words, what occurs when an order is proactive that does not occur when it is not proactive? If one is an IB client, like me, is there any way of working around whatever problems are presented by this situation?
Any help that anyone can offer here would be greatly appreciated...
A "proactive" ARCA order is an order which ARCA can route to other market centers, when doing so would provide a better fill than is available on ARCA, or when no fill is available on ARCA. IB sets a "PNP (Post-no-Preference)" flag on its ARCA orders, which prevents ARCA from re-routing them to other market centers. If you are an IB client, you can use IB's SMART order router, in lieu of ARCA's order router. IB's arrangement deprives you of access to regional stock exchanges, but I don't see what other problems would arise. If you think you see some other problem, then you should describe it in detail so that other traders or IB's Customer Service can try to diagnose the problem and to see if it really exists and what solutions are available and whether IB SMART needs some sort of improvement. I don't understand why anybody thinks IB's arrangement is so terrible, and I would very much appreciate it if somebody could explain to me what disadvantages there are, if any (other than lack of access to regional stock exchanges).
Quote from jimrockford:
I don't think this is true and I don't think you understand the new rules. If you have access to appropriate smart order-routing software, to re-price and to re-submit rejected orders automatically, you shouldn't have a problem. Do you have such access? Can you be more specific about how your ability to enter trades has been compromised? I'm sure that if we can discuss the details, one of us or both of us will learn something valuable, so please explain.
Here is the reason why it sucks for me. I do some of my trading in pre and post-market. It has always been the case that ARCA's uptick policy during extended hours has been irritating compared to INET's policy. In the example in the first post, the last print on ARCA on HAL was 83.65 and now there is an 83.64 bid on ARCA. If I send an order directly to ARCA or via IB's SMART router to short at 83.64, the order ends up showing as a limit sell order at 83.65 on ARCA. If I really wanted to get short, before I could send an order to short at 83.64 or lower to INET and it would be displayed on the INET limit book. I tended to have a good chance of getting filled when I matched or crossed the market on INET. However, now if I send a short order at 83.64 or lower to INET, the order is not displayed publicly. It is flagged as a hidden order and no one else knows it exists. So my chances of enticing someone to get me short on HAL are practically zero now.
Quote from sprstpd:
Here is the reason why it sucks for me. I do some of my trading in pre and post-market. It has always been the case that ARCA's uptick policy during extended hours has been irritating compared to INET's policy. In the example in the first post, the last print on ARCA on HAL was 83.65 and now there is an 83.64 bid on ARCA. If I send an order directly to ARCA or via IB's SMART router to short at 83.64, the order ends up showing as a limit sell order at 83.65 on ARCA. If I really wanted to get short, before I could send an order to short at 83.64 or lower to INET and it would be displayed on the INET limit book. I tended to have a good chance of getting filled when I matched or crossed the market on INET. However, now if I send a short order at 83.64 or lower to INET, the order is not displayed publicly. It is flagged as a hidden order and no one else knows it exists. So my chances of enticing someone to get me short on HAL are practically zero now.
Ah, so your problem is that you were previously able to short NYSE stocks on downticks on INET outside of regular trading hours, but you are now no longer able to do so. Is this correct?
Quote from jimrockford:
Ah, so your problem is that you were previously able to short NYSE stocks on downticks on INET outside of regular trading hours, but you are now no longer able to do so. Is this correct?
Well, because ARCA and INET have separate uptick behaviors, I don't consider myself shorting on a downtick. It is my attempt to get around ARCA's irritating uptick policies in extended hours trading. But I am not shorting on a downtick in the eyes of INET. If you view it from the ARCA point of view, then yes, I am trying to short on a downtick.
Quote from sprstpd:
Well, because ARCA and INET have separate uptick behaviors, I don't consider myself shorting on a downtick. It is my attempt to get around ARCA's irritating uptick policies in extended hours trading. But I am not shorting on a downtick in the eyes of INET. If you view it from the ARCA point of view, then yes, I am trying to short on a downtick.
I believe that in the eyes of the SEC, you are trying to short on a downtick in violation of SEC Rule 10a-1, and that INET is simply enforcing that SEC rule by blocking your short sale on a downtick. The rule does not contain any exception allowing you to short on INET at a price lower than the last price traded on ARCA.
Quote from jimrockford:
I believe that in the eyes of the SEC, you are trying to short on a downtick in violation of SEC Rule 10a-1, and that INET is simply enforcing that SEC rule by blocking your short sale on a downtick. The rule does not contain any exception allowing you to short on INET at a price lower than the last price traded on ARCA.
I would agree with you if it were during normal hours of trading, but these SEC rules have never applied in extended hours trading before. Why start now? Are there new rules specifically targetting extended hours trading?