".NET beats JVM any time"...

Rationalize · Feb 17, 2013

Quote from comintel:

I would agree that the Windows/.Net platform may be a more practical "broader target" to aim for for someone who currently feels more comfortable with Windows and .Net than with Unix and Java.

.

I'll spell it out: traders don't care about or reward anything in unix-land, regardless of whether that real-time code makes the core of their P/L.

It only matters if they can see it (GUI / Excel), and they talk to the developer day to day.

No UI, and no spreadsheet, then it's just another cost, maintained by some faceless group of "ops people", probably somewhere offshore, far far away from customers & the prop business.

It's not about how good you are, it's about where you are.

hftvol · Feb 17, 2013

I do not need to gather opinions, I worked as prop trader for several tier 1 firms and 2 large hedge funds before I started my own venture. Thus, I am well aware of what is going on in large investment banks and hedge funds in terms of system architecture. When I mentioned DMA execution platforms and pricing engines that encompasses core cash equity and derivatives "mission-critical" IT systems, respectively. I extrapolated from the experience and knowledge I gathered and there is no reasons to assume the firms I and friends work(ed) at should be outliers.

Quote from comintel:

I would not agree that most *major* banks and hedge funds nowadays run the *majority* of their mission-critical trading apps. on pure Windows machines, pricing engines, data warehouse servers, matching engines, dma platforms (emphasis on "most" not "all").

That is purely a factual question.

(Of course they run some apps. on Windows, and many smaller banks and hedge funds have no clue what they are doing anyway).

Let's get some opinions on that purely factual question.

By the way I made no criticism of you at all. Until one experiences the reliability problems of Windows, one is simply unaware of them - perfectly normal and not a criticism.

hftvol · Feb 17, 2013

I do not know of a single bank that would in 2012 or 2013 start new major projects off the back of Java.

Quote from comintel:

I can tell you that a major bank I personally know of uses primarily Unix and Java for its production trading platforms.

(There is some Windows and .Net too, but to a much smaller extent).

They hire primarily Java developers (or developers familiar with any other comparable language, such as C#, who can easily switch over to Java).

But it is true that a lot of smaller firms do like to use Windows.

comintel · Feb 17, 2013

Quote from hftvol:

I do not know of a single bank that would in 2012 or 2013 start new major projects off the back of Java.

I do and I think your sample is off-base which is why I am asking for others' experience.

But Unix plus (Java or C++) is what I am interested in, not just Unix plus Java.

hftvol · Feb 17, 2013

true about what traders care. But not entirely true when it comes to the true cost of developing and maintaining high throughput/low latency system architecture. Unix systems and in particular C++ libraries are an order of magnitude more expensive to manage and maintain. That is why most investment banks nowadays contemplate (if they have not already started) to re-write their entire (or most of it) libraries using C#. I am not talking about the 10% of systems allocated to the hft operations that every major player nowadays deems an essential part of the business. Some are mistaken in that they think hft contributes to overall revenue more than max 10%. Thus suggestions that C++ and Linux/Unix systems are such an essential part of the business are factually incorrect.

Quote from Rationalize:

I'll spell it out: traders don't care about or reward anything in unix-land, regardless of whether that real-time code makes the core of their P/L.

It only matters if they can see it (GUI / Excel), and they talk to the developer day to day.

No UI, and no spreadsheet, then it's just another cost, maintained by some faceless group of "ops people", probably somewhere offshore, far far away from customers & the prop business.

It's not about how good you are, it's about where you are.

syswizard · Feb 25, 2013

Amazing no one has mentioned the dev environment (i.e. Visual Studio).
I think that makes a huge difference from a programming standpoint.
Java IDEs were never that good.

sprstpd · Feb 25, 2013

Quote from syswizard:

Amazing no one has mentioned the dev environment (i.e. Visual Studio).
I think that makes a huge difference from a programming standpoint.
Java IDEs were never that good.

IntelliJ is pretty good. Maybe not 100% as good as Visual Studio, but close.

NetTecture · Feb 26, 2013

Quote from sprstpd:

IntelliJ is pretty good. Maybe not 100% as good as Visual Studio, but close.

I doubt that.

Yes, in VS area - but add TFS and all the other integratable platform parts, and InelliJ falls behind.

The integrated testing and project planning in TFS / VIsual Studio alone are worth a LOT.

comintel · Feb 26, 2013

Quote from syswizard:

Amazing no one has mentioned the dev environment (i.e. Visual Studio).
I think that makes a huge difference from a programming standpoint.
Java IDEs were never that good.

I use both Eclipse and Visual Studio and I find Visual Studio vastly inferior.

Just to start with, it lacks the Local History of Eclipse (simple file copies of all past source changes without requiring the overhead of a source repository, commits etc.)

syswizard · Feb 26, 2013

Quote from comintel:

I use both Eclipse and Visual Studio and I find Visual Studio vastly inferior.

Which release are you referring to ? 2005, 2010 ?
I think 2013 is coming out soon, no ?