Nazi's, Anti-Semites or not?

[drmarkan]

This is the line of discussion that we have had at this point Z10.

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Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

Many do believe the Jews did in fact have too much power and economic control in Germany, which led to their problems.
Many antisemits that is. Like it or not but that is a very antisemitic POV.
Hardly. Belief that some, not all Jews (not all Jews are wealthy and powerful, now are they) have too much influence on policy is not anti-Semitic.

I beleve that lobby groups have too much influence on our government as well. Does that make me anti-American? I am opposed to the neocon influence in our government, that makes me anti-Semitic?
i]
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If it is not anti-semitic, then why did they slaughter so many Jews? Like you said, the Jews were not all powerful and wealthy. If I were to say that blacks have too much influence in American politics, you would be the first one on this board screaming that I am a racist.

Z10 reply

No, they could simply be an opportunist, knowing how the masses will respond.

They are mad for power, not really motivated by hatred of the "other" they use to gain and keep power.

I am certainly not defending Hitler and his abuse of power, but a study of history shows this technique of making an "other" by which to manipulate the masses by someone who is driving for power, is actually quite common. Stalin killed how many?

Also, it wasn't just Jews that Hitler killed, by the way...




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Quote from drmarkan:

It seems to me that somebody who would use a technique like stirring up anti-semitic sentiments among the populace for political gain is also an anti-semite. Why else would he choose this group unless he himself did not care about them. Once Hitler was in power, what was his reason for continuing with the extermination of the Jewish population? He could have taken everything they had and left them with their lives at the very least.
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[FanOfFridays]

Quote from drmarkan:
Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

Many do believe the Jews did in fact have too much power and economic control in Germany, which led to their problems.

Did zEvader say exactly this, that Jews had 'too much power' and that led to their 'problems' in Nazi Germany?

If so, do you have a link?

 

[hypostomus]

It's a visceral thing. Noble blonde blue-eyed Nordic types like me just don't like anybody that is truly indistinguishable from a raghead. I mean, SEMITIC applies to BOTH of them! Example: Betty Friedan looked like Yasser Arafat in drag. Clean Osama up and he'd fit right in in Lower West Manhattan.

 

[drmarkan]

Quote from drmarkan:

Z10 reply:

No, they could simply be an opportunist, knowing how the masses will respond.

They are mad for power, not really motivated by hatred of the "other" they use to gain and keep power.

I am certainly not defending Hitler and his abuse of power, but a study of history shows this technique of making an "other" by which to manipulate the masses by someone who is driving for power, is actually quite common. Stalin killed how many?

Also, it wasn't just Jews that Hitler killed, by the way...
[/B]

I do agree that they were mad for power, but I have to disagree with you in regards to them not being anti-semitic. In fact, they were not just anti-semitic, they hated all non-Aryan races.

If this is the case, then I guess we can't really label any politician for that matter as being racist because their main motivation is to have political power. David Duke was just trying to stir up the masses in order to gain votes.

 

[dddooo]

Quote from drmarkan:

Z10 - Many do believe the Jews did in fact have too much power and economic control in Germany, which led to their problems.
---Many antisemits that is. Like it or not but that is a very antisemitic POV.
Z10 - Hardly. Belief that some, not all Jews (not all Jews are wealthy and powerful, now are they) have too much influence on policy is not anti-Semitic.

an·ti-Sem·i·tism - hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group
http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=anti-Semitism

I am sure he's going to deny it but it's hard to consider the statement that "Jews had too much power in Germany" as anything short of hostile. One could also make a case that the statement is discriminatory but the fact that it's hostile is undeniable.

 

[ZZZzzzzzzz]

Quote from dddooo:

an·ti-Sem·i·tism - hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group
http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=anti-Semitism

Thanks for posting that, I had no idea...

(rolling eyes and laughing)


I am sure he's going to deny it but it's hard to consider the statement that "Jews had too much power in Germany" as anything short of hostile. One could also make a case that the statement is discriminatory but the fact that it's hostile is undeniable.

Many do think that, obviously. Mel Gibson's words certainly echoed as much.

I think corporations have too much power in America.

Is that a hostile statement?

I think lobby groups have too much influence on the political process.

Is that a hostile statement?

I think right wing evangelicals have too much influence on the present administration.

Is that a hostile statement?

 

[Pabst]

I suggest everyone read John Toland's excellent two volume biography of Adolph Hitler. It's considered the benchmark.

Here's a philosophical question. Can one dislike/hate members of a race/religion based on experiences/observations without being unduly labeled anti? Or can anti be a well reasoned opinion?

I ask because here's a popular Hitler myth debunked. As most of us know, Hitler's mother died of cancer when Hitler was 18. He took it VERY hard. His mother's doctor, Dr. Bloch, was Jewish. Many pseudo-shrink intellects have tried to argue Hitler's grief over his mom's death turned into rage toward the Jewish doctor. Bloch himself dismisses this by saying that not only was he never persecuted as a Jew if anything he always wondered (no one knows why) if Hitler hadn't interceded to make Bloch's life safer than that of other Jews. Also Toland finds Hitler's birth records sketchy but says just the same it's an unlikely possibility that The Chancellor was of Jewish ancestry.

By and large it seems Hitler's hatred of Jews stemmed from the Jews embracement of Communism in Germany following the Bolshevik revolution in Russia. One of Hitler's first memories while in the hospital recovering from his nerve gas injuries at the end of WWl was of Jewish officers in the defeated German Army trying to round up comrades to fight for the Red's in a new revolution in Bavaria. Hitler was not amused.

Hitler saw the Jews as anti-nationalists who were communist leaning and at odds with his plans to take back the ceded territories lost by Germany at Versailles. As a strong German (although Austrian until the War) nationalist, Hitler had legit gripes with the internationalist Jew. However as a justification for genocide or even violation of due process, he didn't have much of a leg to stand on. Hitler actually felt much the same way about Jews in Germany as Zionists feel about Muslims in Israel...........


It appears Hitler's feelings were not emotional or political but highly ideological.

 

[dddooo]

Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

an·ti-Sem·i·tism - hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group
http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=anti-Semitism

Thanks for posting that, I had no idea...

(rolling eyes and laughing)


I am sure he's going to deny it but it's hard to consider the statement that "Jews had too much power in Germany" as anything short of hostile. One could also make a case that the statement is discriminatory but the fact that it's hostile is undeniable.

Many do think that, obviously. Mel Gibson's words certainly echoed as much.

I think corporations have too much power in America.

Is that a hostile statement?

I think lobby groups have too much influence on the political process.

Is that a hostile statement?

I think right wing evangelicals have too much influence on the present administration.

Is that a hostile statement?

First of all you are actually hostile to those entities, second the logic is absurd, of course you may believe that a Ferrari has too much power and that won't make you anti-Ferrari but believing that a group of people has too much power based on religion or ethnicity is a clear sign of hostility to that group in the real world. The context of your statement is as important as the statement itself and the belief that jews have (had) too much power is one of the most wide-spread antisemitic accusations.

PS The fallacy of your logic is best illustrated by the following example. If I were to say that all muslims or blacks are stupid that (according to your logic) does not mean I am a racist as I also believe that certain goverment policies are stupid and yet I am not anti-american or anti-government.

 

[FanOfFridays]

Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

I think corporations have too much power in America.

Is that a hostile statement?

clearly!

Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:
I think lobby groups have too much influence on the political process.

Is that a hostile statement?

yes.

Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:
I think right wing evangelicals have too much influence on the present administration.

Is that a hostile statement?

why on earth would it be interpreted any differently? Does the statement that you feel they have too much power imply that you are amicably disposed towards them?

 

[FanOfFridays]

Quote from dddooo:

First of all you are actually hostile to those entities, second the logic is absurd, of course you may believe that a Ferrari has too much power and that won't make you anti-Ferrari but believing that a group of people has too much power based on religion or ethnicity is a clear sign of hostility to that group in the real world. The context of your statement is as important as the statement itself and the belief that jews have (had) too much power is one of the most wide-spread antisemitic accusations.

PS The fallacy of your logic is best illustrated by the following example. If I were to say that all muslims or blacks are stupid that (according to your logic) does not mean I am a racist as I also believe that certain goverment policies are stupid and yet I am not anti-american or anti-government.

well said.

Z doesn't seem to understand that when you target an institutional group like lobbyists or evangelicals, it is different than targeting a racial or ethnic group.