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Nationalize the Oil Companies, Refiners, Shippers, etc
- Thread starter limitdown
- Start date
Quote from 1Reason:
Did you grow up in a house painted with lead paint?
Tell the truth, you KNOW that lead paint tastes sweet from first hand experience don't you?
I know thats kind of mean and I am just kidding but are trying to give the impression that you know something about economics AND think that socialism is a good thing?
Here is an open invitation to you to go with me to china on my next trip and i will show you the areas that are totally planned (use that term loosely ) and the areas that are a free market.
It doesnt take a college grad to figure out where you want to live and what type of economy is the better of the two.
lastly, Gas is cheap. Yes I said it. Gas is so cheap that demand is just starting to show signs of going down due to prices. You may like cheaper gas but opinions are not the same.
Best to you and remember boats don't leave Florida to bring people to Cuba. The Berlin wall was not built to keep people out and getting all the good lifestyle of a planned economy.
Bob
what does this thread, your comments, no matter how humerous, have to do with the price of tea in china?
I don't understand what you're trying to alude to? The links between your statements suggest, what?
socialism over capitalism over free unregulated markets equals a place most desired to live in?
don't see the logic, because so many conclusions, no matter how sincere skip so many logical steps that I totally lost your comment...
seriously....
gas / diesel being cheap, well, the testimonies before congress on Wednesday takes aim at those statements and does not support your claims.
I am not the messenger, other than just a concerned trader, as well as citizen, as well as a human seeing the extreme conditions that we have because of complete negligence and manipulation no matter how (seemingly untraceable) well hidden it has been, has done to all us Americans...
so, how that has to do with your comments, I don't see the linkage or understand....
incidently, the concept of "systematic risk" is also something that Bernake, having specialized (as he claims to have done as a student) in learning all that could be reviewed from the Depression that occurred in US History and Economic policies.
so, to suggest somehow, not knowing about economics, well, not really interested in justifying that issue....
so, what now?
also, in the logical opposite, your comments then suggest (using the same skip step logic) support and full agreement with what is so obvious and being commented on so heavily by so many Congressmen, commentator and others as desirous of a communist or socialist system?
another way to accomplish this would be the approach that the US Gov't did during war times (WWII) with 5-star General H,. Arnold and airplane manufacturing plants.
Another method would be to take the blueprints from the method of ship building and creating new aircraft carriers and jeep carriers to replace those under engagement in the Pacific theatre.
-------
create an emergency (war / civilian) powers act to:
1) build at least 48 new refineries on decommissioned bases and fast tract the approval process. this might / would distribute the capacity and distribution to each state.
2) standardize the "refinery grading system" to perhaps 4 or 6 variations and press the states to adopt the grading closest to their clean aire standard grade so that the current refineries do not have the excuse of making so many grades of gas that that process creates more expense than environmental benefit
3) create multiple oil shale refineries at the sources of the raw product in the midwest, which could / should bring online these production methods and product within 8 months or less after fast tracking the process
adding competition to the equation given the national priority of fuel usage and the continued shrinkage of industries dependent upon refined products should help to correct these imbalances and correct this supply / demand equation in favor of the citizens
Another method would be to take the blueprints from the method of ship building and creating new aircraft carriers and jeep carriers to replace those under engagement in the Pacific theatre.
-------
create an emergency (war / civilian) powers act to:
1) build at least 48 new refineries on decommissioned bases and fast tract the approval process. this might / would distribute the capacity and distribution to each state.
2) standardize the "refinery grading system" to perhaps 4 or 6 variations and press the states to adopt the grading closest to their clean aire standard grade so that the current refineries do not have the excuse of making so many grades of gas that that process creates more expense than environmental benefit
3) create multiple oil shale refineries at the sources of the raw product in the midwest, which could / should bring online these production methods and product within 8 months or less after fast tracking the process
adding competition to the equation given the national priority of fuel usage and the continued shrinkage of industries dependent upon refined products should help to correct these imbalances and correct this supply / demand equation in favor of the citizens
when I started this thread,
it got varied responses as well as varied points of view on the poll
none of the respondents (due to our high pressure jobs, which comes first) figured this out as a competitive thread....
introduce competition!
I used the example of the TVA (and its a documentary on the History Channel (www.historychannel.com) that can be seen in rotation or purchased) as an example of when government had to be the patrician and introduce change!
Sore feelings, well, look at the last 8 minutes of that report to see what benefits were derived on so many levels that it trumped, out weighed, vastly overshadowed the pain and suffering that occurred because of its implementation.
Similar large national (public) works programs addressed (read: solved) the labor (read: employment) crisis to the extent that (specifically in the case of the TVA) limits had to be imposed upon how much work / pay one could receive. Imagine that, more applicants than jobs.
Similar large national works projects also solved the infrastructure crisis, and these crossed state lines as if they didn't even exist.
Similar large national works projects were run as efficient businesses, not bureaucaratic nightmares and provided the nation with surplus supply so that the future war demands were met.
Similar large national works project in sheer coincidence, were undertaken in multiple large countries at the same time and under vastly different circumstances in the 1930's. Some were under war bonds and paid labor. Some were under concentration camp forced labor. Some were under concentration camp prison labor.
There are many solutions, of which the best parts can be picked, put together and rapidly deployed, just by reviewing history and how these challenges were facd in the recent past.
yeah, we're beyond that point of needing to do something drastic and trust bust these oil companies (read: drillers, refiners, distributors, shippers, etc.)
it got varied responses as well as varied points of view on the poll
none of the respondents (due to our high pressure jobs, which comes first) figured this out as a competitive thread....
introduce competition!
I used the example of the TVA (and its a documentary on the History Channel (www.historychannel.com) that can be seen in rotation or purchased) as an example of when government had to be the patrician and introduce change!
Sore feelings, well, look at the last 8 minutes of that report to see what benefits were derived on so many levels that it trumped, out weighed, vastly overshadowed the pain and suffering that occurred because of its implementation.
Similar large national (public) works programs addressed (read: solved) the labor (read: employment) crisis to the extent that (specifically in the case of the TVA) limits had to be imposed upon how much work / pay one could receive. Imagine that, more applicants than jobs.
Similar large national works projects also solved the infrastructure crisis, and these crossed state lines as if they didn't even exist.
Similar large national works projects were run as efficient businesses, not bureaucaratic nightmares and provided the nation with surplus supply so that the future war demands were met.
Similar large national works project in sheer coincidence, were undertaken in multiple large countries at the same time and under vastly different circumstances in the 1930's. Some were under war bonds and paid labor. Some were under concentration camp forced labor. Some were under concentration camp prison labor.
There are many solutions, of which the best parts can be picked, put together and rapidly deployed, just by reviewing history and how these challenges were facd in the recent past.
yeah, we're beyond that point of needing to do something drastic and trust bust these oil companies (read: drillers, refiners, distributors, shippers, etc.)
Quote from Sam321:
What is the "oil industry" by the way, which you say has an iron grip over politics and media? Exxon? Or, the Islamists and Communists who sit on top of 80% of the world's oil reserves?
Let's hope we are in Iraq to help Exxon, because quite frankly, American oil companies have lost a lot of "pull" working out favorable deals as the global trend moves toward nationalizing oil fields, by the most dissagreable political systems and cultures.
You forgot one of the most disagreeable political figures in the United States, that put 250 pages of Energy de-regulation legislation ( without a committee hearing ) at midnight back in December of 2000 that allowed for online trading exchanges of ENERGY CONTRACTS without any supervision or regulation by the CFTC. ( now known as the Enron "loophole" ).
His name is Phil Gramm.
His wife's name is Wendy, and after she resigned from heading the CFTC she was appointed to the BoD of Enron and put on the Audit Committee about 5 weeks later where she was paid close to $2 million dollars.
Why are there no position limits for West Texas Intermediate crude oil futures contracts on the ICE that trades in London, or on the DME ( Dubai Mercantile Exchange ) in Dubai?
Imagine that???
An American crude oil futures contract in which 30% of the open interest resides via exchanges that have no position limits and are under ZERO regulation from the CFTC.
Phil Gramm is a bastard and deserves to go to HELL. Send GW Bush and his dispicable "strong" dollar policy of the last 7 years with him.
Aside from global supply/demand issues, the above 2 issues ( weak dollar and exchanges like the ICE and DME with no CFTC supervision ) have gone a long way to create $135 per barrel WTI.
Thanks Mr. Gramm.
May you choke on a Carl's Jr $6.00 burger and go to HELL.
thanks for pointing this out
I think someone also pointed this out on another thread too..
clearly this was done,
clearly most Americans, if not others in other countries, have been adversely affected by these events and their rigging of global oil prices...
the more these facts are made more public, the more those responsible are being identified...
wonder what's coming to their doorsteps?
history taught us that the japanese came knocking at america's doorstep on dec 7th at pearl harbor.....
history keeps repeating itself...
hmmm
I think someone also pointed this out on another thread too..
clearly this was done,
clearly most Americans, if not others in other countries, have been adversely affected by these events and their rigging of global oil prices...
the more these facts are made more public, the more those responsible are being identified...
wonder what's coming to their doorsteps?
history taught us that the japanese came knocking at america's doorstep on dec 7th at pearl harbor.....
history keeps repeating itself...
hmmm
Actually the japanese came knocking because US Govt/Military blockade had cut off its supply of crude oil. After their reserves dropped to a few weeks worth of what their navy was consuming they had two choices: running out of oil with no options, or try to fight it out to have options. Why do you think they chose Pearl Harbor and US Navy ships as their first strategic target?Quote from limitdown:
... the japanese came knocking at america's doorstep on dec 7th at pearl harbor.....
And do you really think FDR would have made the decision to mess around with Japan's oil supply if he didn't have A-bomb or if Japan had an equal measure of retaliation? Sorry, I got carried away with history.
On a subject of Nationalization. US capitalism is the most efficient economic system that ever existed on this planet. Its whole purpose is an appreciation of capital. It accomplishes this purpose with ever increasing efficiency which has never been seen before in the history of civilization. Whether you like it or not US Govt is an extension of capitalist economic system in a sense that it exists to sell goods and services to the public (police, military, education, etc., are the services that we purchase with our tax dollars). US Govt however does not exist to benefit the public interest as witnessed by steady decline in the quality of life of the average American. In a sense it's a corporation that sells to the public. The purpose of nationalization is to operate an industry in the public interest. Now if US Govt is a corporation that does not operate in the public interest, what purpose would it serve if it took over other corporations. Take overs usually designed to benefit the shareholders not the public. The public would benefit from oil industry take over by US Govt as much as it would from take over by GE, Haliburton or Microsoft, for example. Nationalization only works in countries which are democratic by nature, US is not a democracy - it's a republic.
Quote from limitdown:
Pearl Harbor (lest we forget)
Other reasons, including...
hmmmm
I wonder how you would enjoy if you built a successful business, and the government just nationalized it, because they felt like it...
That's the difference between a capitalistic democracy and a sort of a dictatorship.
Doesn't the example of your average government agency give you the chills that they would take over our energy industry?
Ask your average small honest building contractor, how enjoyable it is dealing with local govt wrangling over permits and inspections, with state governments that hound him over workmen's comp, worker's rights, but will not lift a finger to pursue illegal contractors ("jacklegs") that pay under the table, don't get permits, don't have WC, and can underbid him by 20% and make more money.
Once the govt takes over ANYTHING, look out below!!!
Consider the IRA. They make life miserable for many, and are prevented from hiring enough inspectors to collect from those who cheat the system. It is the honest taxpayer who always seems to lose.
This is the nature of govt run institutions. Inefficient, little concern for their "patrons", aimless, and take forever to get anything done that may be just a little complex, etc.
Quote from daddyeaux:
I wonder if there will be calls for position limits if the price dives $30
you mean, back down to the $18 range, where this started is metoric rise from?
or just below $30 bbl
or just it loses $30 and floats around $108 bbl?
I know which price most of the consumers in the world would be content with....
I can reasonably comprehend that their respective governments would be happy that their citizenry were happy, at ...