My issue about AMP

[JSOP]

you are confused bc you don't understand the market making model, it's fine, i get it, you don't have a top down understanding of market structure

Yes I do but anyway you choose not to see that. That's fine.

when i mean broker, i mean they are not acting in Agency capacity.

if they are are trading against you, they are taking the other side of your trade, they are not brokering they are market making

That's exactly what I mean as well. They are NOT acting in Agency model where they are passing your orders to 3rd-party or a central exchanges. Instead they internalize the order which is market making. At least you understand what is market making. And I am telling you IG, CMC and all of the spread betting firms, as long as there is no central exchanges for spread betting, they are ALL market-making, which is trading against you, taking the other side of the trade directly. So if you are trading directly against your broker, 1 on 1, now imagine what happens when you win? What is happening to the broker's position, which is the opposite of yours? If you do this exercise, you will see this conflict of interest which is to the detriment of the trader.

There are exchange traded futures on ice and cme and other exchanges, banks have aribtrage positions in the cash market against the futures markets. again this is the 3rd misfact that you've stated. https://www.cmegroup.com/trading/fx/

Yes that CME is a central exchange market but it's for currency FUTURES not SPOT currency which is what spread betting and CFD "retail forex market" is all about. Totally different market, totally different financial products and is not an efficient hedge with very horrible liquidity.

1.) first you said IB doesn't route orders, this was wrong

I was not aware that IB do payment for order flow for zero-commission trades. Ok fine but what does that have anything to do with spread betting firms trading against their clients and profiting at their expense? Even if IB does payment for order flows, IB is still routing orders to 3rd parties and not internalizing them?

2.) then you said that there isn't an exchange for FX, that is wrong

That is NOT wrong. There is NO exchanges for FX, which everybody understands as SPOT FX. Let's not play word games here.

3.) in the OTC market, there is no exchange, it goes on a platform like EBS but banks need to have bilateral agreements with each other to trade on EBS or they go direct via bloomberg and reuters --> again the 3rd wrong thing you have said today

I never said anything about the routing of interbank FX transactions. You are the one who have been talking about this, something that is completely irrelevant to OP's question or the topic of discussion here.

i already said that IG are quoting you and hegding in the interbank market and that the bid/ask spread is slightly wider than interbank, so yes it's a proxy, i already said that/ what is your point? why are you taking what i said and acting like i didn't say it? That's the essence of being a market maker, your quote to the client is not the actual market but a proxy. That's the essence of having an OTC market. The OTC market structure is:

1st level Bank to Bank (interbank)
2nd level Bank to Client
3rd level Dark Pools, multi-lateral trading facilities

This is how the goldman and morgan stanleys of the worlds rake in millions, are they running scams? NO, they have OTC trading desks direct with clients in fx, stocks and bonds...It's the same with IG

I just explained to you 10 x how it works. Their price is wider than the real market.
If you are a profitable trader, they hedge your trades and lock in a few points and are flat.
If you are not profitable, then they don't do anything and benefit from liqudity, client pool crossing the bid/ask. So they don't care if you win or lose. A market makers wants as a many clients to trade as possible. That's why market makers pay RObinhood for order flow, you clearly don't get it. The clients find benefit in the OTC model, so they continue to use it. You keep ignoring the fact that spreadbetting is tax free or when robinhood commission are tax free


The guy said he wanted to trade indices, bc he got rejected by AMP, he can start off small at IG.
IB is 2 tics wide in indices, if he can't make money in that, then he won't make money trading with a 1 tick/bid ask. I mentioned indices bc there are micro contracts on indices, that's what he is asking for

Great you regurgitated again how interbank foreign exchange works but it still does not negate the fact that spread betting firms engage in unscrupulous practices of trading against clients and profiting at their expense without proper disclosure and everybody is better off staying away from them and trade financial products that are traded on central exchanges.

And btw, the guy wants to trade e-micros, just small-size contracts because he has small-size account, NOT indicies, e-micros have contracts for gold too. You just assumed that he wants to trade indicies. But no matter how small the account size, he shouldn't fall victim to market-making where he will never be able to profit. That's my point. The fact that spread-betting is tax-free is a moot point. If the guy's not going to make any profit, he's not going to have any taxes to pay anyway, what's the need for it be tax-free? 76% of the people lose money with spread-betting firms which is about the same % of people who trade with casino market-making retail forex brokers. I guess 76% of the clients who sign up with those spread-betting firms don't need it to be tax-free.

 

[ballsofgold]

Great you regurgitated again how interbank foreign exchange works but it still does not negate the fact that spread betting firms engage in unscrupulous practices of trading against clients and profiting at their expense without proper disclosure and everybody is better off staying away from them and trade financial products that are traded on central exchanges.

fuck my life, let me spell this out to you again for the millionnth time

we agree that IG is a market maker. i am trying to educate you that IG just employs the typical market making model, they quote you as a proxy and hedge where they find liqudity, the exchange, the interbank, internal order flow

Being a market maker, inherently, is taking the otherside of your trade.
When you lose, they win. Every bank takes the otherside of client trades, what the hell are you complaining about. let them make some money so they can continue to provide a service for trading markets tax free. when they need to list a commodity like aluminum which is so wide i can put my dick in there, it's bc they don't have alot of liquidity or the ability to trade out. they just take losses on the chin and build it into their revenue model in that most traders like yourself probably can't make money so you cry like a baby. This is why they want as many clients trading as possible so they can tighten the spreads, they don't want you to lose, they want global client poool to cross the bid/ask so they can tighten the spreads and manage the risk better. But as long the pricing is consistent and inline most of the time it's fine. If the spreads are consistent but too wide like some of their commodidites, then don't trade them on IG.

you want them to be brokers, but stop making them to be what they are not
stop calling a dog a cat and then get mad about it

in the liquid markets, they don't need you to win or lose, bc they can go out and hedge themselves in the market. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS. I am trying to teach you as a former market maker myself.

If I have VaR, you use that VaR to make money. customer can come in and lift me as much size as you want, I have to work my way out of the position. as soon as the market goes against you, i get out of the trade. this is bc nearly 100% of the time the trade will go against you whether you are trading the otc or the exchange. Once i have hedged, I am short against you and i am long against the exchange or another bank. I am fucking flat, after that I don't need to worry about your trade bc i have locked in a few tics. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS

hft models on the exchange do the same thing, they have their algos and ghost orders working to get in and out on the bid/ask all day as they are taking the otherside of people on the exchange. it's no fucking difference

the only problem, i admit with ig is that you can see when they skew prices sometimes or they widen spreadens when they need to get out of bad trades in wild markets, but as an active user it doesnt happen that much. IF so, smart people like me would abritrage the shit out of them. so they can't be out of line too long.

all these people complaining like ig went stop hunting --> firstly i don't use stops but when i have i coudn't complain bc i went to check time and sales on exchange and can see it was inline. So many retail guys complain about brokers but they don't understand that IG is not big enough to move the market. I am not saying that IG is perfect, they disallow people to open new positions at times when they are getting hammered, however, they are bound by the FCA to employ best execution policies for retail clients, so you can check them if you are not happy with a fill.

stop commenting on a brokers viability when you don't trade with them. what you are doing is pretty bad bc you are painting all parties with the same brush. There are people who trade big fucking size with them and you are complaining about IG and you don't even have an account to share an experience

 

[JSOP]

fuck my life, let me spell this out to you again for the millionnth time

we agree that IG is a market maker. i am trying to educate you that IG just employs the typical market making model, they quote you as a proxy and hedge where they find liqudity, the exchange, the interbank, internal order flow

Being a market maker, inherently, is taking the otherside of your trade.
When you lose, they win. Every bank takes the otherside of client trades, what the hell are you complaining about. let them make some money so they can continue to provide a service for trading markets tax free. when they need to list a commodity like aluminum which is so wide i can put my dick in there, it's bc they don't have alot of liquidity or the ability to trade out. they just take losses on the chin and build it into their revenue model in that most traders like yourself probably can't make money so you cry like a baby. This is why they want as many clients trading as possible so they can tighten the spreads, they don't want you to lose, they want global client poool to cross the bid/ask so they can tighten the spreads and manage the risk better. But as long the pricing is consistent and inline most of the time it's fine. If the spreads are consistent but too wide like some of their commodidites, then don't trade them on IG.

you want them to be brokers, but stop making them to be what they are not
stop calling a dog a cat and then get mad about it

in the liquid markets, they don't need you to win or lose, bc they can go out and hedge themselves in the market. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS. I am trying to teach you as a former market maker myself.

If I have VaR, you use that VaR to make money. customer can come in and lift me as much size as you want, I have to work my way out of the position. as soon as the market goes against you, i get out of the trade. this is bc nearly 100% of the time the trade will go against you whether you are trading the otc or the exchange. Once i have hedged, I am short against you and i am long against the exchange or another bank. I am fucking flat, after that I don't need to worry about your trade bc i have locked in a few tics. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS

hft models on the exchange do the same thing, they have their algos and ghost orders working to get in and out on the bid/ask all day as they are taking the otherside of people on the exchange. it's no fucking difference

the only problem, i admit with ig is that you can see when they skew prices sometimes or they widen spreadens when they need to get out of bad trades in wild markets, but as an active user it doesnt happen that much. IF so, smart people like me would abritrage the shit out of them. so they can't be out of line too long.

all these people complaining like ig went stop hunting --> firstly i don't use stops but when i have i coudn't complain bc i went to check time and sales on exchange and can see it was inline. So many retail guys complain about brokers but they don't understand that IG is not big enough to move the market. I am not saying that IG is perfect, they disallow people to open new positions at times when they are getting hammered, however, they are bound by the FCA to employ best execution policies for retail clients, so you can check them if you are not happy with a fill.

stop commenting on a brokers viability when you don't trade with them. what you are doing is pretty bad bc you are painting all parties with the same brush. There are people who trade big fucking size with them and you are complaining about IG and you don't even have an account to share an experience

Ok you need to understand one thing: If you want to be a market maker then you shouldn't be taking people's money and be their broker and if you want to be somebody's broker, then you shouldn't be also their market maker. Market makers take the other side of the bank's transaction but they are NOT the broker of the bank!! Same thing if my order happened to be filled by a specialist, that specialist is NOT my broker!! If the broker and the market maker are the same company then there is a problem. They have a conflict of interest!! The company that has my money is also taking the other side of my transactions so they have an incentive to take my money away from me hence you see the practice of stop-hunting (having or not having stops is irrelevant), refuse trading during fast market-moving times... These are all common practices that market-making brokers that have a conflict of interest deploy against their clients. I wasn't picking on IG but IG but glad you confirmed all of my statements. And IG is definitely not the only broker that does this and certainly won't be the last as long as this kind of casino-style market-making structure is allowed to exist. That's my point. Having the best execution practice is the least they are supposed to do as a market maker.

I do not know why you feel you have to so vehemently defend those market-making firms that deploy unscrupulous practices to take money away from people all under the guise of "market movement" when they are the ones how manipulated the prices (they are not big enough to move the market that's true but you are not really trading against the "market", you are really trading just against this ONE broker which is also your market maker. That's the problem.) If you are one of the traders that are actually able to make money from trading with them (eventually you will lose; you are set up to lose by them you will see one day), you will be able to make lot more money if you trade products that are traded on central exchanges. If you are losing with them, then you should be happy that I just exposed what those brokers are doing. The only reason that I can see that you might defend them so much and especially one company IG so much is you actually work for IG. Then you are not allowed to do that. You are not allowed to openly solicit businesses here without being registered as a sponsor or making your identity known.

 

[ballsofgold]

listen man, i don't need an education, it's clear that i have way more experience than you

to answer your question, i benefit from the tax free setup, so i don't like it when people lobby to shut it down. how the F can i work for IG when i also said you can try CMC or gain? what crap are you saying?

I have told you 1 million times, I track the dma access at the same time i trade on IG so i can see that their pricing is usually in line, how many times do i need to keep repeating the same thing

again, you keep calling htem brokers, they are not brokers. You have to open an account with them bc you need to deposit money against your losing position. Banks also do this with their OTC clients, if you want to trade otc with JPM or goldman, you need to deposit cash to cover negative variation margin. if not, then you need to apply for an OTC credit line.

Again you are showing your inexprience. if you want more clarity on how the trading world really works, i am happy to continue to educate you

you are complaining about IG bc you don't want to deposit initial margin, you are killing me
https://www.globalcapital.com/article/k6b8sq14t8nk/initial-margin-for-otc-derivatives

 

[ballsofgold]

Ok you need to understand one thing: If you want to be a market maker then you shouldn't be taking people's money and be their broker and if you want to be somebody's broker, then you shouldn't be also their market maker. Market makers take the other side of the bank's transaction but they are NOT the broker of the bank!! Same thing if my order happened to be filled by a specialist, that specialist is NOT my broker!! If the broker and the market maker are the same company then there is a problem. They have a conflict of interest!! The company that has my money is also taking the other side of my transactions so they have an incentive to take my money away from me hence you see the practice of stop-hunting (having or not having stops is irrelevant), refuse trading during fast market-moving times... These are all common practices that market-making brokers that have a conflict of interest deploy against their clients. I wasn't picking on IG but IG but glad you confirmed all of my statements. And IG is definitely not the only broker that does this and certainly won't be the last as long as this kind of casino-style market-making structure is allowed to exist. That's my point. Having the best execution practice is the least they are supposed to do as a market maker.

I do not know why you feel you have to so vehemently defend those market-making firms that deploy unscrupulous practices to take money away from people all under the guise of "market movement" when they are the ones how manipulated the prices (they are not big enough to move the market that's true but you are not really trading against the "market", you are really trading just against this ONE broker which is also your market maker. That's the problem.) If you are one of the traders that are actually able to make money from trading with them (eventually you will lose; you are set up to lose by them you will see one day), you will be able to make lot more money if you trade products that are traded on central exchanges. If you are losing with them, then you should be happy that I just exposed what those brokers are doing. The only reason that I can see that you might defend them so much and especially one company IG so much is you actually work for IG. Then you are not allowed to do that. You are not allowed to openly solicit businesses here without being registered as a sponsor or making your identity known.

forget IG, anyone regulated by the FCA has made a committment to employ best execution practices. so once that's done, it's no different if you trade on IG or IB. If you have a fill complaint, then go to the fca financial ombudsman and file a case.


I agree that market markers in general have dodgy practices, but that also includes the banks. what you are complaining about is market making, not spread betting perse. just stop looking at IG as a broker, bc they are not

as far as i know, in 2013 when IG index got slammed when the SNB removed the USDCHF fx peg, they lost loads of money. But IG made good on their stop orders and took the loss, lots of people i know use them.

 

[JSOP]

forget IG, anyone regulated by the FCA has made a committment to employ best execution practices. so once that's done, it's no different if you trade on IG or IB. If you have a fill complaint, then go to the fca financial ombudsman and file a case.


I agree that market markers in general have dodgy practices, but that also includes the banks. what you are complaining about is market making, not spread betting perse. just stop looking at IG as a broker, bc they are not

as far as i know, in 2013 when IG index got slammed when the SNB removed the USDCHF fx peg, they lost loads of money. But IG made good on their stop orders and took the loss, lots of people i know use them.

Anybody that takes custody of their clients' money whether it's deposit or whatever, I call them brokers. I just want people to be aware of what they are signing up for with brokers who are operating in the market-making business model instead of a pure agency model, whether it's for spread betting or retail forex or whatever. That's all.

 

[ballsofgold]

Anybody that takes custody of their clients' money whether it's deposit or whatever, I call them brokers. I just want people to be aware of what they are signing up for with brokers who are operating in the market-making business model instead of a pure agency model, whether it's for spread betting or retail forex or whatever. That's all.

yes but in doing that, you may have deterred the threadstarter from opening an account. if he is looking for micros, he can deposit 500 and start practicing, whether live or demo. Even if he is paying an extra tic or two, what's most important is to have live p&L to see if he has the goods to be a profitable. that's where the learning begins with trading, real positions

 

[JSOP]

yes but in doing that, you may have deterred the threadstarter from opening an account. if he is looking for micros, he can deposit 500 and start practicing, whether live or demo. Even if he is paying an extra tic or two, what's most important is to have live p&L to see if he has the goods to be a profitable. that's where the learning begins with trading, real positions

That's exactly my intention. With his small account, he can afford even less to be scammed away by any brokers that operate in market-making business models. He is not going to learn anything by not even trading in a real market but only against ONE broker/market maker. He will learn much better and much more by opening accounts with a broker that operates in an agency model that passes his orders to be executed by a central exchange or at least a 3rd-party market maker so he can how his strategy works, how his trades are executed and etc. All agency model brokers have demo accounts if he is not comfortable trading live right away. He will see his P&L just the same. He does NOT need to pay extra ticks or two and fall victim to the brokers' unethical practices just to see P&L.

You should stop promoting your spread-betting shop.

 

[ballsofgold]

That's exactly my intention. With his small account, he can afford even less to be scammed away by any brokers that operate in market-making business models. He is not going to learn anything by not even trading in a real market but only against ONE broker/market maker. He will learn much better and much more by opening accounts with a broker that operates in an agency model that passes his orders to be executed by a central exchange or at least a 3rd-party market maker so he can how his strategy works, how his trades are executed and etc. All agency model brokers have demo accounts if he is not comfortable trading live right away. He will see his P&L just the same. He does NOT need to pay extra ticks or two and fall victim to the brokers' unethical practices just to see P&L.

You should stop promoting your spread-betting shop.

dude, you are a mug,

we just went through this that market making doesn't make it unethical and that there are algos on the exchange that are just as bad. There are iceberg orders that front run you on the exchange. you have no clue

if you think that trading via an FCM gives you the chance of being more profitable then not really

i am not promoting spreadbetting, i am simply calling it what it is....

the guy got shot down from amp, if he wants to start trading in small size, he can do it in a spreadbet account....you are already assuming he will lose money, just bc you suck at trading doesnt mean he will

 

[JSOP]

dude, you are a mug,

we just went through this that market making doesn't make it unethical and that there are algos on the exchange that are just as bad. There are iceberg orders that front run you on the exchange. you have no clue

if you think that trading via an FCM gives you the chance of being more profitable then not really

i am not promoting spreadbetting, i am simply calling it what it is....

the guy got shot down from amp, if he wants to start trading in small size, he can do it in a spreadbet account....you are already assuming he will lose money, just bc you suck at trading doesnt mean he will

When the market maker is the same as the broker, market making against the client IS unethical. Nothing is perfect. I am aware of all the crap that goes on. Still I don't want my order to filled by the same person who also has my money and neither should you unless of course you are working for the spreadbetting company.

The guy got shot down from AMP. He's got plenty of other brokers to try trading products that's traded on exchanges. Not worth it to try trading an OTC product. Everybody sucks at trading an OTC product where the market maker/broker trades against you. LOL You are set up to fail by the MM. 76% loss rate says it all.

Let it go, buddy.