Must read article in SciAm answers a question often asked on ET: Born or Made?

[Dogballoon]

Well, you can't objectively quantify the depth of training just based on years, or the devotion an athlete <i>chooses</i> to bring to the table. The argument opposite my own is that excellence under pressure is genetic, and not a factor of training.

Haven't seen any "resistant to stress" gene studies out there. Like I said before, cognitive ability is primary, emotional is secondary. You need both to excel, and both are a product of training. If some golfer cracks when he putts, do you infer that's because he's born weak or that he hasn't mastered himself in the way that grandmasters, in this articles, have trained themselves. The article brings enough argument to this effect on its own, so you'd make a better case if you address those arguments rather than spin a new narrative based on personal interpretation or experience.

 

[acronym]

Quote from ozzy:

Its a little bit of both with a definite skew to the born side with regards to sports.

In regards to trading I would say its close to even.

Ozzy, how do you figure that?
Simply that physical actions are more "natural" than cognitive ones?

There are so many examples either way its not funny, it appears nothing conclusive is possible here.

For example, Johnny Sing, a not so famous sniper , he was trained to shoot but he had tonnes of natural aptitude, in fact did it for a living-its a cerebral exercise, yet still physical-
a "natural" if you like.

huh, what am i talking about, that expression wouldn't exist if there wasn't a recognition of "born to (insert discipline here) " skills.

Yet dogballoon has pointed out, quite validly, these things can also be taught, so..........

This is too intellectual for me

 

[Dogballoon]

Further:

"Thus, motivation appears to be a more important factor than innate ability in the development of expertise. It is no accident that in music, chess and sports--all domains in which expertise is defined by competitive performance rather than academic credentialing--professionalism has been emerging at ever younger ages, under the ministrations of increasingly dedicated parents and even extended families."

I am going to pass out now. Sat. night. with traders out. I trained this crew of chums from HS and they tend to sauce me up on weekends as punishment. Soon I';l be asleep at the keyboard if I don't turn this off.

 

[Maverick74]

Quote from Dogballoon:

Well, you can't objectively quantify the depth of training just based on years, or the devotion an athlete <i>chooses</i> to bring to the table. The argument opposite my own is that excellence under pressure is genetic, and not a factor of training.

Haven't seen any "resistant to stress" gene studies out there. Like I said before, cognitive ability is primary, emotional is secondary. You need both to excel, and both are a product of training. If some golfer cracks when he putts, do you infer that's because he's born weak or that he hasn't mastered himself in the way that grandmasters, in this articles, have trained themselves. The article brings enough argument to this effect on its own, so you'd make a better case if you address those arguments rather than spin a new narrative based on personal interpretation or experience.

Well then, let me direct you to two excellent books I have read on this very subject.

http://www.amazon.com/Mean-Markets-...=pd_bbs_1/103-9621048-1542268?ie=UTF8&s=books


http://www.amazon.com/Mean-Genes-Ta...=pd_bbs_2/103-9621048-1542268?ie=UTF8&s=books

Two of the better books you will ever read on this subject. So if you are serious about this and getting to the core of this issue, you will pick up a copy of these books and read them. They are both quick and easy reads.

 

[stereo70]

Is Andy Roddick a great tennis player? You betcha he is. Best serve in men's tennis by a mile. But what does it tell you that when he played Rodger Federer at the final at the US open a few weeks back that not only did Federer outplay Andy, he out aced him 17-7. That's right, a guy that is not even known for having a decent serve, out aced the best server in men's tennis 2 to 1.

You are out of your element talking about tennis w/ these huge, sweeping generalities. Federer not having a decent serve?

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

His serve is awesome. I don't know if you play tennis or not, but serving has much more to do with placement and disguising the type of spin you're putting on the ball than it does pure MPH.

Nadal is basically the only player that's beat him multiple times in the last few years (mostly on clay). There is a huge gap between #1 and the rest; probably the biggest gap that's ever exisited.


The difference between Federer and everyone else that has EVER played the game is this: He plays the crucial points effortlessly, and steps up his game consistently at the right time, to demoralize his opponents. Why he is able to do this doesn't really matter; just that he does.

And there was a time when he wasn't as able to control his emotions. The death of his coach, according to him, is what changed that part of his game.

No offense meant, but I feel the need to defend my 27 years of "Effortful Study"

 

[BigFunky]

Quote from Maverick74:

... Andy is out on the courts 10 hours a day. He is probably the hardest working guy on the men's tour.

I agree with most of what you are saying, but the above quote to me is the point of difference. We can all see what a player is physically capable of, and we can all observe how much they practice and their apparent determination. However what we can't see is what a player is thinking. What is going through a players mind when they are practicing, indeed why are they practicing? Why is Andy Roddick the hardest working guy on the tour? Does he go out to practice each day thinking that he has to practice harder than anyone else because otherwise he's not quite good enough? Does Federer go out to practice each day merely to keep up his skills at being the best? Perhaps Federer simply trained his mind to be stronger, whether purposefully or not. Maybe its too late for Roddick to change.

A person's physical attributes are essentially defined at birth, they can be strengthened are refined of course, but only within their own limits. But what about a persons emotional or psychological attributes? I would consider those to be the least innate qualities of a person, and would go as far to say that all people are essentially born with a clean slate of mind that can be formed in anyway.

As pointed out, there are many kids trained in sports and music from an early age, but perhaps it's the emotional and psychological atmosphere concerning those activities that most influences their abilities. So maybe to be a better trader, one must put more effort into training the mind, much like the saying "practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect"

 

[version77]

Quote from BigFunky:



As pointed out, there are many kids trained in sports and music from an early age, but perhaps it's the emotional and psychological atmosphere concerning those activities that most influences their abilities.

Well... as John McEnroe would say... "You cannot be serious!"...

 

[NZDSPeCIALISt]

nitro,

Thanks for those articles.

Here is a favourite article of mine: an indepth interview with Vladimir Kramnik, current world chess champ.

http://www.kramnik.com/eng/interviews/getinterview.aspx?id=75

The pressure of the match in which he beat Kasparov to become world champ for him was some form of telepathic dance. Quite a thing to compete at this level..

 

[ozzy]

I could go on and write a paragraph about why I believe what I wrote to be so. But in the end it is just my opinion so I won't bother, such questions like these tend to invoke ''group'' mental masterbation.

What I'm interested in is what option strategies Mav employs?



ozzy

 

[nitro]

That is a wonderful interview. I had never read it. Thanks!

Here are two more interesting articles relevant to our discussions:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/rss/pto-20050614-000002.html
http://www1.kenyon.edu/publications/bulletin/20_4/waitzkin.htm

The first article in particular is intersting as it discusses brain structures. There is also a link I made in this post:

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1012892#post1012892

but the link seems to be broken.

nitro

Quote from NZDSPeCIALISt:

nitro,

Thanks for those articles.

Here is a favourite article of mine: an indepth interview with Vladimir Kramnik, current world chess champ.

http://www.kramnik.com/eng/interviews/getinterview.aspx?id=75

The pressure of the match in which he beat Kasparov to become world champ for him was some form of telepathic dance. Quite a thing to compete at this level..