Moving to portfolio trading..
- Thread starter BhillYachtsman
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Chaos,
Thanks for your reply. I did not see the posts that were deleted, so I don't know the nature of what was posted, but rather trying to figure out why this is different than the other prop arrangements described on ET.
You are right that many managers have some portion of their net worth in the fund they manage. However, I do think there is one important distinction between many hedge fund managers who have money in their fund and the prop arrangements I read about here: in the hedge fund situation, the manager takes a percentage of losses reflecting the percentage of the fund he owns, which is often quite small, versus the prop arrangements where the trader is responsible for all or most of the losses from his contribution. Quite different in that respect it seems.
Thanks for your reply. I did not see the posts that were deleted, so I don't know the nature of what was posted, but rather trying to figure out why this is different than the other prop arrangements described on ET.
You are right that many managers have some portion of their net worth in the fund they manage. However, I do think there is one important distinction between many hedge fund managers who have money in their fund and the prop arrangements I read about here: in the hedge fund situation, the manager takes a percentage of losses reflecting the percentage of the fund he owns, which is often quite small, versus the prop arrangements where the trader is responsible for all or most of the losses from his contribution. Quite different in that respect it seems.
In addition, private equity and hedge funds do not rely on commission income from traders, but on the strategies they deploy in the markets. In fact, private equity is most commonly understood as taking large stakes in at-risk companies and reforming them. Both do not require a large supply of traders to execute their strategies, but rather on smart talent who get paid for their ingenuity.
You will notice in a previous thread Yachtman, a recent ET member joining a new company, mentions that he puts down 50k capital, pays .01 a share and receives 90% of his <i>own</i> portfolio net. In addition, Yachtman's strategy seems to be intraday only, and I have never heard of an intraday only hedgefund or private equity firm. Nor have a heard of one where the <i>traders</i> put themselves at risk in addition to the managers.
Now, my previous comment questioning if this firm can truly be defined as private equity was deleted as being off topic, so I hope this one will be considered more relevant to the conversation with further explanation. I'd rather not start a new thread topic to ask the rest of the community if portfolio trading firms are in fact prop firms.
Beyond that, I'd state that if a firm has a successful strategy of managing wide portfolios across markets, more power to them. Very difficult to pull that off, and deserves respect if so. It might even help to buy an advertising slot here on ET and introduce the methodology and its expectancy, as frequency would magnify the gains. I'm sure questions about personal risk would be foremost in any potential trader's mind, of course.
What is wrong with this bulletin boards usersâ mentality? While we are at it what is wrong with this newer generation, always implying information that is not there.
Who said I was just planning to daytrade or that Dayson Capital is a prop firm? My arrangements with the fund allow me to hold leveraged overnight naked or hedged positions. Their intra-day algorithm can signal an entry that can be held multiple days if thatâs how I want to manage the position. I wonât have access to output on other timeframes because its black boxed. Their algorithmic intra-day trading is just one strategy I plan to use in my portfolio.
As for the percentage of loss, I would much rather fund 50K-100K at a time than put up a full 5mm and then take a % of the full portfolio loss each time and them have claim to my liquid assets. The rest of my unused funds can be earning a 5 to 6 percent elsewhere. This was the agreement that was offered and is right for me. As for my rate itâs good and prime brokerage and is not comparable to retail. The industry averages are 2 pennies or more a share. They may make some off me somewhere in that equation but I donât care.
Just because a person has never heard of a type of relationship doesnât mean they do not exist. Just means the general public does not know about them or they are few and far between. I have a good friend who sold a bank on a cocktail napkin. Why did he get the bank and the formal talks with another fail? Relationships are everything, but you have to build TRUST, and PERFORM. This constant sense of instant entitlement and generational animosity towards anything creative or not the norm is just pathetic.
Our fore fathers would be ashamed at such narrow minded views. In retrospect I regret posting that link and my question if I knew there would be so many wanting to compartmentalize everything into some proprietary model that street wide is not even properly defined anymore.
Who said I was just planning to daytrade or that Dayson Capital is a prop firm? My arrangements with the fund allow me to hold leveraged overnight naked or hedged positions. Their intra-day algorithm can signal an entry that can be held multiple days if thatâs how I want to manage the position. I wonât have access to output on other timeframes because its black boxed. Their algorithmic intra-day trading is just one strategy I plan to use in my portfolio.
As for the percentage of loss, I would much rather fund 50K-100K at a time than put up a full 5mm and then take a % of the full portfolio loss each time and them have claim to my liquid assets. The rest of my unused funds can be earning a 5 to 6 percent elsewhere. This was the agreement that was offered and is right for me. As for my rate itâs good and prime brokerage and is not comparable to retail. The industry averages are 2 pennies or more a share. They may make some off me somewhere in that equation but I donât care.
Just because a person has never heard of a type of relationship doesnât mean they do not exist. Just means the general public does not know about them or they are few and far between. I have a good friend who sold a bank on a cocktail napkin. Why did he get the bank and the formal talks with another fail? Relationships are everything, but you have to build TRUST, and PERFORM. This constant sense of instant entitlement and generational animosity towards anything creative or not the norm is just pathetic.
Our fore fathers would be ashamed at such narrow minded views. In retrospect I regret posting that link and my question if I knew there would be so many wanting to compartmentalize everything into some proprietary model that street wide is not even properly defined anymore.
This is crazy if I get one more email about new posts on this thread.. A. Who is Asset trader B. The topic is on the equity arrangements not a company. C. I changed it so it might not seem like a delclaritive and people would actually contribute. D. If anything you are giving this company free press on here. E. The Ip's of none of these users match up. F. If this controversy keeps up I am just going to delete the entire thread. So please keep it on topic. Last request.
Attention: all hedgefunds and private equity firms. Do not hire, or consider any partnership with 99% of users on elite trader. This 99% demands .0001 commissions all in with ecn pass through, a mere 40MM in BP, 100% payout, oh and you have to provide them with the holy grail and for free because they are to lazy to do the legwork, and learn to trade. Please be advised there is serious competition here for these unproven traders abilities to manage assets within our current late 90's like economy and marketplace. Also do not forget that they all get tons of offers from other buyside firms daily. Don't even expect any of this elitetraders sample to take any personal responsibility for any loesses, they are all super risk adverse and could not hear of such opportunities with a higher beta of 0.
Personally I think this company should outsource its project to China, India.
Attention: all hedgefunds and private equity firms. Do not hire, or consider any partnership with 99% of users on elite trader. This 99% demands .0001 commissions all in with ecn pass through, a mere 40MM in BP, 100% payout, oh and you have to provide them with the holy grail and for free because they are to lazy to do the legwork, and learn to trade. Please be advised there is serious competition here for these unproven traders abilities to manage assets within our current late 90's like economy and marketplace. Also do not forget that they all get tons of offers from other buyside firms daily. Don't even expect any of this elitetraders sample to take any personal responsibility for any loesses, they are all super risk adverse and could not hear of such opportunities with a higher beta of 0.
Personally I think this company should outsource its project to China, India.Then simply introduce it to us and let it stand on its own merits. We're not stupid people. Do not hide behind a facade.
Have you seen or do they have backtested results based on the trading of their entry signals which they will be providing you with?
If there is a positive expectancy of the trades and it is profitable by more than an overall average per share of 2.5 cents (about your cost round trip), why would you suppose that they are giving it away to you rather than trading it themselves?
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