Moscow museum to exhibit Mohammed cartoons

[Ivanovich]

The people were once responsible for the government of Russia, but now it is a group of petty thugs that essentially runs everything. Putin lets them do what they will as long as they stay out of politics. If you're poor in Russia (like most) then your chance of breaking out of that is almost nil. The value placed on human life in Russia is almost nil as well.

As for the level of drinking and alcoholism, please show me where I said that it wasn't a problem. What I said, was that the perception that a majority of Russians are drunks is bullshit. the perception that the population is all alcoholics is bullshit. That is what I said. Alcoholism is a problem in many Eastern European countries. That doesn't mean the population is a bunch of drunks.

Lastly, what I said was Russia is not making Jews leave. You said that too, so I'm unsure what exactly it is you're arguing, dddooo. Some of you folks really need a course in reading comprehension.

We've already established that racism is a problem in Russia, thanks for the link to back that up!

Incidently, this from your article: "Said Uzzell: “If you’re a Jew in Russia today, you have to worry about walking down the street and getting beaten up by a skinhead, and the state doing nothing about it. If you’re a Christian you really don’t have to worry about this" is also bullshit. Skinheads don't know you're Jewish unless you're dressed like an Orthodox one. They can't tell a Jew from a Christian based on looks - and THAT is how they pick their targets. Based on looks.

 

[EC1]

Quote from Ivanovich:

The people were once responsible for the government of Russia, but now it is a group of petty thugs that essentially runs everything. Putin lets them do what they will as long as they stay out of politics. If you're poor in Russia (like most) then your chance of breaking out of that is almost nil. The value placed on human life in Russia is almost nil as well.

Interesting that you don't call Putin a petty thug, considering he is from the secret police whose job was, precisely, to kill Russian people.

 

[dddooo]

Quote from Ivanovich:

They can't tell a Jew from a Christian based on looks

Actually they can. I am serious but don't take my word for it, check with your russian friends.

Quote from Ivanovich:

As for the level of drinking and alcoholism, please show me where I said that it wasn't a problem.
...
Lastly, what I said was Russia is not making Jews leave. You said that too,

What you said was technically correct but it did not reflect and actually obfuscated the real situation. Not every russian is a drunk of course but way too many of them are. They are not forcing jews out of the country but way too many of them are antisemitic.

 

[Ivanovich]

Quote from EC1:

Interesting that you don't call Putin a petty thug, considering he is from the secret police whose job was, precisely, to kill Russian people.

Don't make it sound like his job was to commit genocide. He was in St. Pete to snuff out dissidents to the Soviet regime. And that is certainly not what he is now. I'm not saying he's a hero or a saint, but he has certainly distanced himself from the corruption well enough. He can do that because he's making himself a dictator.

 

[Ivanovich]

Quote from dddooo:

Actually they can. I am serious but don't take my word for it, check with your russian friends.


I asked my wife how to tell a Jew from a Christian. She said "You can see those funny caps they wear most of the time." Then I asked her how she'd know if they didn't have any apparently jewish clothing and she said, "I don't know, maybe the nose?" Ridiculous. They can't tell, and to assume they can is stupid. How can you tell someone's religion if they don't wear anything identifying them as a member of the religion??

Quote from dddooo:
What you said was technically correct but it did not reflect and actually obfuscated the real situation. Not every russian is a drunk of course but way too many of them are. They are not forcing jews out of the country but way too many of them are antisemitic. [/B]

"Way too many" is entirely speculative. Of all the Russian families I knew in Moscow (including those in my building, the 30 or so employees that worked for me, my friends, wife's family, etc) I can think of about 3 or 4 families that had a problem where at least one member of the household was an alcoholic. By American standards (which is what we're talking about here). Of those 3 or 4, 1 of them had both wife and husband drunk all the time.

You're a fool if you believe that "way too many Russians are drunk". That's just more American ignorance. Incidently, I'm American, not Russian. But I've seen the world, and am sick of the stereotypes placed on other countries and their people by Americans who have never been any further than Disneyland or the "Jersey Shore" for vacation.

 

[dddooo]

Quote from Ivanovich:

"Way too many" is entirely speculative...You're a fool if you believe that "way too many Russians are drunk".

Did not you read the statistics I posted earlier. I am posting it again and if there is any part of it you don't understand don't hesitate to let me know.

"According to Russian government statistics, 40% of men and 17% of women are active alcoholics. One in three families has at least one addict." http://www.preventionpartnership.us/russian_project.htm

PS FYI Moscow does not represent Russia, the situation in Moscow is significantly better than elsewhere in the country. Try Siberia, Far East, countryside, russian vilages and small towns if you want to see real alcoholism.

 

[Ivanovich]

I read the stats. I also know what to make of Russian stats. They're accurate half of the time, and the other half you might as well reach up your own arse and pull a number out.

Cities I've spent a decent amount of time in besides Moscow:

Ekaterinburg
N.Novogrod
Chubaksary
Novosibirsk
Khabarovsk
St. Petersburg
Saratov

Check your map, you'll see that these pretty much sample a good portion of russia (apart from the far east).

While I do not know many families in these cities, I can tell you that yes - life is different here. Jobs are harder to find, and many men give up and resort to alcoholism as a result. The higher percentage of alcoholics live in the regions. Also true.

But we all know what they say about the three lies, right? Lies, damned lies and statistics. Here's a stat for you:

"In 2002 and 2003, an estimated 88.2 percent of persons aged 21 or older (175.6 million) were lifetime alcohol users, whereas an estimated 11.8 percent (23.5 million) were lifetime nondrinkers. Over half of lifetime alcohol users (52.7 percent) had used one or more illicit drugs at some time in their life, compared to 8.0 percent of lifetime nondrinkers. Among persons who had used an illicit drug in their lifetime, the average age at first illicit drug use was 19 years for lifetime alcohol users, versus 23 years for lifetime nondrinkers."

http://www.drugwarfacts.org/alcohol.htm

So what does this mean? Does this mean our country is a bunch of drunks and druggies? Of course not.

So how did the Russian Government come up with 40% of men and 18% of women are alcoholics? How, indeed, in a country with no census data, no method of population sampling, etc. Hell, in Moscow alone there are an estimated 3 million of the 14 million who are living there illegally and unknown to the government! 40% and 18% indeed. Riiiight.

Tell me, have you ever been to Russia? Have you ever lived anywhere other than the US? I'm just trying to gauge the level of experience of the person I'm debating with.

 

[EC1]

Pointless discussion. Who wins if Russians are alcoholics or not? Last time I checked Scotch don't live that long either.

 

[Ivanovich]

There doesn't have to be a point to have a discussion. We can just discuss, which is what we're doing now.

It's a lot better than yet-another-stupid-post by ZZZZzzz or King Cobra, and then the ensuing nonsense that follows it.

 

[dddooo]

Quote from Ivanovich:

"In 2002 and 2003, an estimated 88.2 percent of persons aged 21 or older (175.6 million) were lifetime alcohol users

So what does this mean? Does this mean our country is a bunch of drunks and druggies? Of course not.

Are you kidding, don't you really understand the difference between alcohol users and alcoholics?

Quote from Ivanovich:

How, indeed, in a country with no census data, no method of population sampling, etc.

Sure they have census data, they have excellent KGB experience of keeping track of every person in the country.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2333487.stm

Quote from Ivanovich:

Tell me, have you ever been to Russia? Have you ever lived anywhere other than the US?

Yes and Yes.


PS Is that you?