Mike - Claire Thread

Originally posted by darkhorse



Have to point out though, you have hit the nail on the head by accident:

in a lot of cases it is NOT their choice. They must comply or receive anything from a beating to a bullet.

Hence the bashing

p.s. surely you aren't THE Nick Leeson? Tapping away from a jail cell in Singapore?
More...

Ahh, if you travel to say Saudi Arabia, as I have done, one of the backwaters in terms of liberality, you will find, as I have found, that indeed a majority - not all, but a majority - of the female population fully support the traditions.
 
p.s. surely you aren't THE Nick Leeson? Tapping away from a jail cell in Singapore?

Haha, no, I am not he:D

He is actually on an extremely lucrative speaking circuit in the UK these days, and was released from jail after, if I remember correctly, just a couple of years.
 
Originally posted by NickLeeson


Ahh, if you travel to say Saudi Arabia, as I have done, one of the backwaters in terms of liberality, you will find, as I have found, that indeed a majority - not all, but a majority - of the female popluation fully support the traditions.
More...


aside from the fact that i doubt we can speak for every person living in a totalitarian system as saudi arabia is, i think you would have to agree that when you look the world over, you can find at least three distressed or mistreated muslim women for every one who is comfortable and satisfied.

and its not really a numbers game anyway, its a question of ethics. Even if the entire country were happy to live in pink tents, that does not make it right for pink tents to be the rule of law punishable by imprisonment or death.
 
Originally posted by NickLeeson


Ahh, if you travel to say Saudi Arabia, as I have done, one of the backwaters in terms of liberality, you will find, as I have found, that indeed a majority - not all, but a majority - of the female popluation fully support the traditions.
More...

I suppose next you will suggest that most of the women in saudi prefer death by public beheading for adultery too? And minor criminals deserve having a hand amputated? And what woman in her right mind would wish to drive a motor vehicle by the 21st century?

Did you conduct a poll of the majority of woman? As I understand it, it is not too easy to garner the opinions of women who are rarely let out of their homes and scarcely allowed to even talk to a western man.. I presume you are a woman?

Neil
 
Originally posted by darkhorse



aside from the fact that i doubt we can speak for every person living in a totalitarian system as saudi arabia is, i think you would have to agree that when you look the world over, you can find at least three distressed or mistreated muslim women for every one who is comfortable and satisfied.

and its not really a numbers game anyway, its a question of ethics. Even if the entire country were happy to live in pink tents, that does not make it right for pink tents to be the rule of law punishable by imprisonment or death.
More...

Well, let's ignore the absolute numbers for a sec.

Basically the principle has to be that change has to emanate from the population itself.

Who is to lay down the groundrules by which others have to abide? Who could do that better than those that grew up in a certain way and want to move in a certain direction?

And in the end it's just a question of time how long a regime can hold itself that is working against it's population.

Eventually, if the population can agree on what they want or don't want, an oppressive regime will fall, even if it takes 70 years as with the Communist Block.
 
Originally posted by Neil


I suppose next you will suggest that most of the women in saudi prefer death by public beheading for adultery too? And minor criminals deserve having a hand amputated? And what woman in her right mind would wish to drive a motor vehicle by the 21st century?

Did you conduct a poll of the majority of woman? As I understand it, it is not too easy to garner the opinions of women who are rarely let out of their homes and scarcely allowed to even talk to a western man.. I presume you are a woman?

Neil
More...

Take the European stance vs the US death penalty and all those that were killed innocently and the fact that it hasn't even served as a deterrent to more crime at all, take the European stance vs health care or rather lack of health care for very many Americans, and you'll soon see that the US stance on Islamic law, which after all is supported by most Muslims, at least until they've had their hand cut of, equally just isn't understandable to most Muslims, just as most Americans will support their practises that Europeans find incomprehensible.

And, no, I am not a woman nor a Muslim, but I've just travelled extensively enough throughout the world to realize that advice from outside, even if it is justified, always backlashes in the end.

People want to find their own solutions.
 
Darkhorse "you can find at least three distressed or mistreated muslim women for every one who is comfortable and satisfied. "
Where did you pull that one out from?
The biggest muslim country in the world is Indonesia with approx 100m muslim women.
They are no more "mistreated" than the Christian women in the Philippines or the Buddhist women in Thailand..etc..etc.
 
Originally posted by NickLeeson

People want to find their own solutions.
More...

True, and I understand the world is a complicated and varied place.. but one thing seems to shine out above all others of race or religion, which is that people the world over clamour for democracy (for all its faults) and the right to kick out their leaders when they are fed up of them. I can't think of one place where people have actually VOTED to abolish the right to vote once they have it.. can you?

In saudi for example.. how long will if be before a political party could exist opposing the barbaric practices and totalitarianism of that country? Without being imprisoned and tortured.. takes some guts to protest there I would think.. not a natural process of 'if enough people did not support the system it would fall' .. it was a desert nomadic culture that had the good fortune to be blessed with the black gold.. and as such the barbarians in charge are now protected by F16's and harriers etc.. they argue tough..

Neil
 
Originally posted by Neil


True, and I understand the world is a complicated and varied place.. but one thing seems to shine out above all others of race or religion, which is that people the world over clamour for democracy (for all its faults) and the right to kick out their leaders when they are fed up of them. I can't think of one place where people have actually VOTED to abolish the right to vote once they have it.. can you?

In saudi for example.. how long will if be before a political party could exist opposing the barbaric practices and totalitarianism of that country? Without being imprisoned and tortured.. takes some guts to protest there I would think.. not a natural process of 'if enough people did not support the system it would fall' .. it was a desert nomadic culture that had the good fortune to be blessed with the black gold.. and as such the barbarians in charge are now protected by F16's and harriers etc.. they argue tough..

Neil
More...

Sure, but again, look at Mecca / Saudi Arabia every year, the millions that go their out of their own free will from all over the world and that fully support Sharia that to us is barbaric but to them simple justice, look at Nigeria, where several federal states, the voters, that is, actually voted to impose the Sharia, Islamic law with hand cutting off etc, I'm just saying it's not always all that clear cut.
 
Originally posted by NickLeeson


Sure, but again, look at Mecca / Saudi Arabia every year, the millions that go their out of their own free will and that fully support Sharia that to us is barbaric but to them simple justice, look at Nigeria, where several federal states, the voters, that is, actually voted to impose the Sharia, Islamic law with hand cutting off etc, I'm just saying it's not always all that clear cut.
More...

Well... I am running out of steam here.. it IS barbaric!!! Anyone who defends the amputation of hands for minor crimes is crazy in my opinion.. some things are self evident.. and I think you will find that women in nigeria have no right to vote on matters of islamic law.

But hey.. if you think it is ok to flog people in public.. cut their bits off.. including their bonces in public.. that it is ok to stone WOMEN (not men) to death for adultery.. well fine.. just glad I don't live in your neighbourhood!

Neil

ps. in afganistan the taliban were known to cut off the finger tips of women found with nail varnish on.. that ok by you too?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top