Quote from alfonso:
I don't condone the terror activities that the PLO began to resort to circa the 70s, but surely it's understandable, given that they could see absolutely no other option, isn't it?
You "don't condone" yet you say it is "surely understandable".
Alfonso, it is time to cease trying to make your case. "Balanced discussion"? There is nothing "balanced" at all about your arguments. They are clearly anti-semitic, and historically inaccurate. I should not even attempt to persuade you with facts. Because facts have been ignored by your side of the argument essentially since the day Islam came to be.
But just not to walk in, shut the door in your face and leave, I will say this. There were Jews in what is now Israel always. They too were displaced, returned, displaced, returned etc.
There were also Arabs in that region for thousands of years. However, there was never a "Palestinian" anywhere on the planet until 1948. When the term came about as a further excuse for the Arab world to "drive Israel into the sea".
Some ARABS were displaced, yes. But the vast majority left willingly because they were promised that the Jews would be massacred and then they could return to their homeland and have it all. It did not work out that way. And these "Palestinian" refugees, who were promised a swift Arab victory, were hung out to dry by their fellow Arabs. They were NOT accepted into their neighboring Arab countries. So they became refugees among their "own people". In other words, they were put into camps and not permitted to assimilate into Egypt, Syria, Jordan (which was supposed to be "Palestine") or Lebanon. The countries that bordered Israel. The "Palestinian" issue became essentially an excuse to keep the hatred of the Jews and their independent state alive.
In 1967, Israel was again attacked on all fronts, just as they were in 1948. This time, Israel retained conquered land, as had every nation in every war in all of history. In 1973, the Arabs gave it another shot. (They also had an unsuccessful campaign in 1956.... A whole world full of Islamic French soldiers?) But in the interest of pursuing peace, Isreal returned the Sinai to Egypt and has tried to return essentially to the "green line". But they have not because, as has been pointed out, in this thread, and demonstrated to the world, Arafat does not want peace.
As Optional said, this is not about politics. It is not about land. It is about religious intolerance and hatred that goes back around 700 years. It is a sad fact that really it is a family feud that has grown into a potential planet ending threat. If the religious views are to be taken seriously, (and of course, they are by those that fight this never ending war), it is because Abraham had two sons by two wives, and that just didn't go down well with each other's side of the family tree.
So it's about Muslims and Jews being enemies. The Arab world cannot tolerate the existence of Israel. further, it gives the Arabs (who have plenty of infighting going on amongst themselves) a fine common enemy. And beyond the Arab world, as in Iran, there is also hatred for Israel. No political threat. No Persians displaced from "Palestine". Just hatred of the Jews. Official Muslim policy. Says so right in the Koran.
Arafat claims to have been born in Jerusalem. But the fact is, his own history is pretty murky. Conveniently. But there seems to be convincing evidence that Arafat is indeed of Egyptian heritage. But the place of the man's birth is really irrelevant. He is the leader of the PLO....oops, I mean the PA, and represents all the "oppressed Palestinians" that the rest of the Arab and Islamic world sympathizes with so deeply. As long as they don't have to take them in.
The answer is clear. I said this before in a debate with Traderfut2000. If the Arabs put down their arms, there will be no more war in the Middle East. If the Israelis put down their arms, there will be no more Israel in the Middle East.
Israel stands ready to return the Golan, and the West Bank. And Gaza. Some settlements are too entrenched to just dismantle and abandon overnight. Because this conflict has just gone on too damn long. But eventually, the Israelis know that they need to retreat to the "green line". But they will never yield to terrorism. And the terrorists (really those who sponsor them) know this. Keeping the hatred alive serves the regimes of Israel's neighbors safe from their own people. How can the Saudis (for example) waste their time hating their own leadership when their hatred for Israel is so consuming? Same with all the Arab nations. What did Iraq under Saddam have in common with Iran other than hatred for Israel? Or with Syria? Or any of them. Every one of these Arab countries are led by dictators. Only Israel is a democracy in that part of the world (with questionable and basically insignificant exceptions like Kuwait and Qatar, and some other tiny countries that do not have armies or predominantly poor and uneducated populations).
Peace with Israel is just plain unhealthy for the Royal families and hatred is very profitable. Even Arafat is a billionaire by most accounts.
You do NOT see old Yasser putting on his white disco suit, going for a nice shave, looking sharp and strapping any explosives to his own body. Saddam paid the families of suicide bombers. Yet he did not risk his own hide (or even those of his own troops.....hatred for sale. Good return on investment).
The Arabs (or Palestinians if you prefer the term) who stayed in Israel have enjoyed freedom, prosperity (until recently...now the Fatah has swept them away financially along with the rest of the Israelis), and the right to vote and participate in and be represented in the government (which is pretty extraordinary considering Israel is a technically a theocracy). I also believe that Isreal is the only country in the Middle East in which Islamic woman are permitted to vote.
However, none of what I have said means a damn thing in the end. Because indeed, hell will freeze over before there can be a peace where there is no motivation for it. And again, business has been good for the Royal families and the dictators keeping the status quo.
Maybe if there is a chance that Iraq can develop into a democracy, and democracy catches on, then the concept of peace may see it's time. But as it is now, it's just bad business.
But there is a chance. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) was the "competition" for the PLO. They tried to import communism. Didn't go over too well (for obvious reasons). Maybe now, a democratic "competitive" movement will have a chance to make some inroads. Meanwhile, some Arabs have to be scratching their heads while sitting in the shade of their masters oil rigs, and at least thinking about why Israel has been able to generate domestic product in such areas as technology, biotech, pharmaceuticals, etc. There ain't no oil in Isreal. And there isn't any in Syria either. Or Jordan. Or Lebanon. So maybe.......
Maybe, Peace (some day)
RS
