You obviously have not been to Portland. Portland is not your average American city. You can say that America is not as great as it was. You can fantasize up some perfect revisionist dream. Then you can ask yourself how America ranks in terms of per capita income.
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Middle class revolt
- Thread starter dddooo
- Start date
Quote from TrendyMohawk:
You obviously have not been to Portland. Portland is not your average American city. You can say that America is not as great as it was. You can fantasize up some perfect revisionist dream. Then you can ask yourself how America ranks in terms of per capita income.
You're completely missing the point. I have no intention of "revising" anything, nor does what I'm saying relate to per capita income in any meaningful way.
Quote from TrendyMohawk:
You obviously have not been to Portland. Portland is not your average American city. ...
No its not. In many ways its better than your average american city. Like it or not - you apparently dont - Portland and Oregoners in general, have a different set of priorities than people in New York City, or the eastern or midwestern or southern United States.
The western united states has several different local cultures . If you dont know the details surrounding the state of jefferson, western water and property rights, or in general have never lived in the southwest or pacific northwest or (for lack of a better classification) Oregon, then you probably are not really qualified to introduce mere perception as an accurate assessement of the western political environment.
Quote from hofficita:
To clear any ambiguity....
Public debt rankings
Rank-Country-Public debt(% of GDP)-Date of Information
1 Malawi 228.30 2004 est.
2 Lebanon 177.90 2004 est.
3 Japan 164.30 2004 est.
4 Jamaica 146.10 2004 est.
5 Zambia 127.50 2004 est.
6 Seychelles 122.80 2004 est.
7 Argentina 118.00 June 2004 est.
8 Greece 112.00 2004 est.
9 Italy 105.60 2004 est.
10 Israel 104.50 2004 est.
11 Sri Lanka 104.30 2004 est.
12 Egypt 102.70 2004 est.
13 Singapore 102.50 2004 est.
14 Belgium 96.20 2004 est.
15 Jordan 85.80 2004 est.
16 Serbia and Montenegro 80.00 2004 est.
17 Sudan 79.70 2004 est.
18 Saudi Arabia 75.00 2004 est.
19 Cyprus 74.90 2004 est.
20 Cote d'Ivoire 74.80 2004 est.
21 Kenya 74.30 2004 est.
22 Turkey 74.30 2004 est.
23 Philippines 74.20 September 2004 est.
24 Honduras 74.10 2004 est.
25 Uganda 73.90 2004 est.
26 Pakistan 71.40 2004 est.
27 Morocco 70.20 2004 est.
28 Nicaragua 69.50 2004 est.
29 Panama 69.20 2004 est.
30 Cameroon 69.10 2004 est.
31 France 67.70 2004 est.
32 Vietnam 65.90 2004 est.
33 Germany 65.80 2004 est.
34 United States 65.00 2004 est.
35 Austria 64.20 2004 est.
36 Bahrain 63.80 2004 est.
37 Moldova 63.40 2004 est.
38 Portugal 61.50 2004 est.
39 Dominican Republic 61.10 2004 est.
40 India 59.70 2004 est.
41 Papua New Guinea 59.30 2004 est.
42 Tunisia 59.20 2004 est.
43 Hungary 58.30 2004 est.
44 Costa Rica 58.00 2004 est.
45 Switzerland 57.20 2004 est.
46 Indonesia 56.20 2004 est.
47 Netherlands 55.80 2004 est.
48 Senegal 55.20 2004 est.
49 Trinidad and Tobago 54.40 2004 est.
50 Spain 53.20 2004 est.
51 Zimbabwe 52.30 2004 est.
52 Brazil 52.00 2004 est.
53 Colombia 51.80 2004 est.
54 Sweden 51.60 2004 est.
55 Poland 49.90 2004 est.
56 Ecuador 49.20 2004 est.
57 Thailand 47.60 November 2004 est.
58 Finland 46.80 2004 est.
59 Slovakia 46.60 2004 est.
60 Yemen 46.40 2004 est.
61 South Africa 45.90 2004 est.
62 Malaysia 45.40 2004 est.
63 Peru 44.10 2004 est.
64 Venezuela 43.10 2004 est.
65 Bangladesh 43.00 2004 est.
66 Denmark 42.50 2004 est.
67 Bulgaria 41.90 2004 est.
68 El Salvador 41.70 2004 est.
69 Croatia 41.70 2004 est.
70 Uzbekistan 41.50 2004 est.
71 United Kingdom 39.60 2004 est.
72 Paraguay 39.20 2004 est.
73 Namibia 38.50 2004 est.
74 Algeria 37.40 2004 est.
75 Iceland 35.90 2004 est.
76 Czech Republic 33.50 2004 est.
77 Norway 33.10 2004 est.
78 Taiwan 32.40 2004 est.
79 Guatemala 32.00 2004 est.
80 Syria 32.00 2004 est.
81 Slovenia 31.50 2004 est.
82 China 31.40 2004 est.
83 Ireland 31.20 2004 est.
84 Kuwait 29.60 2004 est.
85 Gabon 29.30 2004 est.
86 Mauritius 29.20 2004 est.
87 Russia 28.20 2004 est.
88 Iran 27.00 2004 est.
89 Lithuania 25.20 2004 est.
90 Ukraine 24.70 2004 est.
91 Romania 23.60 2004 est.
92 Mexico 23.50 2004 est.
93 New Zealand 22.10 2004 est.
94 Korea, South 21.30 2004 est.
95 Macedonia 20.00 2004 est.
96 Nigeria 20.00 2004 est.
97 Azerbaijan 18.90 2004 est.
98 United Arab Emirates 17.60 2004 est.
99 Australia 17.40 2004 est.
100 Kazakhstan 13.70 2004 est.
101 Chile 12.80 2004 est.
102 Latvia 11.80 2004 est.
103 Oman 10.30 2004 est.
104 Libya 8.80 2004 est.
105 Botswana 8.60 2004 est.
106 Estonia 5.40 2004 est.
107 Tanzania 5.00 2004 est.
108 Hong Kong 2.10 2004 est.
These debt numbers say nothing about debt quality. There is a difference between throwing money down the drain and making smart investements for the future. I think in this country we're just throwing money down the drain by spending it on: war, welfare for the irresponsible poor, and welfare for the irresponsible rich. Most other countries probably tend to invest more in infastructure, education, healthcare, etc. - they will get a return on investment but i doubt we will.
Quote from TrendyMohawk:
You obviously have not been to Portland. Portland is not your average American city.
...
Then you can ask yourself how America ranks in terms of per capita income.
As a matter of fact Portland's per capita income ($32,152) is slightly higher than the country's per capita income ($31,472).
http://www.bea.gov/bea/newsrel/MPINewsRelease.htm
Let alone the fact that the concept of per capita income is misleading due to a growing gap between the rich and the rest of the country. Median income is a better measure of middle class prosperity, it's not that great any more and it's getting worse.
This is a fascinating discussion. I will add a few of my points.
Itâs almost a moot point that government jobs are expanding, and one of the best ways to profit is to serve the government with a contract, etc. Just look at the cost of living in northern Virginia feeder suburbs to DC as proof. Both parties favor big government now, so no change to this trend for the foreseeable future.
The discussion on education is very interesting. Parents might be best served by pushing their children to take jobs that are not outsourceable. That leaves government jobs (for security reasons) and trades (plumber, electrician, etc.). Hardly an attractive spectrum. Once things get pushed far enough that the scientific, technical, and engineering fields graduates are no longer employable & canât pay back their student loans, expect a general outcry. I donât think that this is sustainable, nor that it is good for the long term success of our country. Once we lose our technologic edge, we lose our military edge and are ultimately a 2nd rate power.
Over the long run, people arenât stupid. If there are no jobs, people will not go to college and to graduate school. They wonât be able to afford it, and will just get a job wherever. It will be more like the society of the early 1900âs, where you had some very smart people running corner stores, etc⦠because they didnât have access to education.
It really bodes ill for the future of the nation.
I too am concerned about the possibility of demagoguery, tyranny, and despotism arising. Good German people were seduced by Hitler and his Faustian bargain. We all know how that ended. However, I am also reminded that most revolutions are started by the disenfranchised middle class â an educated, technologically savvy and motivated group who have steered the course of history since the dark ages. Many of our middle class are true patriots, suffering in silence. Those who would try to destroy the middle class might wish to consider that; as once Pandora âs Box is opened, things rarely go as planned.
Itâs almost a moot point that government jobs are expanding, and one of the best ways to profit is to serve the government with a contract, etc. Just look at the cost of living in northern Virginia feeder suburbs to DC as proof. Both parties favor big government now, so no change to this trend for the foreseeable future.
The discussion on education is very interesting. Parents might be best served by pushing their children to take jobs that are not outsourceable. That leaves government jobs (for security reasons) and trades (plumber, electrician, etc.). Hardly an attractive spectrum. Once things get pushed far enough that the scientific, technical, and engineering fields graduates are no longer employable & canât pay back their student loans, expect a general outcry. I donât think that this is sustainable, nor that it is good for the long term success of our country. Once we lose our technologic edge, we lose our military edge and are ultimately a 2nd rate power.
Over the long run, people arenât stupid. If there are no jobs, people will not go to college and to graduate school. They wonât be able to afford it, and will just get a job wherever. It will be more like the society of the early 1900âs, where you had some very smart people running corner stores, etc⦠because they didnât have access to education.
It really bodes ill for the future of the nation.
I too am concerned about the possibility of demagoguery, tyranny, and despotism arising. Good German people were seduced by Hitler and his Faustian bargain. We all know how that ended. However, I am also reminded that most revolutions are started by the disenfranchised middle class â an educated, technologically savvy and motivated group who have steered the course of history since the dark ages. Many of our middle class are true patriots, suffering in silence. Those who would try to destroy the middle class might wish to consider that; as once Pandora âs Box is opened, things rarely go as planned.
The US has the best infrastructure in the world. For someone to say other wise is just plain silly and extraordinarily naive.
I was in France in early 80's. You had to go to Post Office to make long distance call!!!!!
You people do not understand how big and rich this country is. The economy and size of California dwarfs most countries.
The corruption, graft and incompetence is all over the world. Russia, Eastern Europe, Africa, South America, Middle East, Far East just to name a few spots.
In most countries the poor want to pull the "rich" down to their level. In America the poor want to become rich. That is a huge psychological difference that non-Americans do not understand and appreciate.
Use Michael Dell as an example: He did not invent one damn thing. He saw a way to make a known common product better, cheaper and faster. Started in his dorm room, worked hard and made some money.
What is happening now is not new. What happened to the guy who tended the horses for the Pony Exp.?
This country has winners and losers. A lot of people live within their means, save money, pay off the home, vacation and have a very nice lifestyle that suits them.
Most people in the world would kill just for a home like our vacation homes, LOL. The average cottage on the lake, river, or shore is bigger and better than the average Japanese home.
And, our military has protected the Japanese, Koreans, Europeans, Middle East and Canadians for the last 50 years and we still have money to play golf on the moon.!!!
SteveD
I was in France in early 80's. You had to go to Post Office to make long distance call!!!!!
You people do not understand how big and rich this country is. The economy and size of California dwarfs most countries.
The corruption, graft and incompetence is all over the world. Russia, Eastern Europe, Africa, South America, Middle East, Far East just to name a few spots.
In most countries the poor want to pull the "rich" down to their level. In America the poor want to become rich. That is a huge psychological difference that non-Americans do not understand and appreciate.
Use Michael Dell as an example: He did not invent one damn thing. He saw a way to make a known common product better, cheaper and faster. Started in his dorm room, worked hard and made some money.
What is happening now is not new. What happened to the guy who tended the horses for the Pony Exp.?
This country has winners and losers. A lot of people live within their means, save money, pay off the home, vacation and have a very nice lifestyle that suits them.
Most people in the world would kill just for a home like our vacation homes, LOL. The average cottage on the lake, river, or shore is bigger and better than the average Japanese home.
And, our military has protected the Japanese, Koreans, Europeans, Middle East and Canadians for the last 50 years and we still have money to play golf on the moon.!!!
SteveD
Steve, I don't think anyone's attacking the US of today (and if they are, it's beside the point). The concern is over the US of tomorrow. Thirty years from now, how will the "average" American live? (Note: Michael Dell isn't your average American. For every Dell that succeeds, there are many times more wannabe-Dells that fail - but those you don't hear about those.)
Hard work and enterprise will be the ticket for success no matter what the prospects for middle America, be they poor or excellent, so let's just agree on that and put it aside. The question at hand is determining what those prospects are, both for the shorter term and longer term future. (I know, I know - the enterprising person doesn't care, or waste time worrying, about "conditions". At least that's what all the "success" books tell me. But we're interested in how it's going to be for the "average" American, not how it's going to be for Mr Enterprising-Take-No-Prisoners.)
Hard work and enterprise will be the ticket for success no matter what the prospects for middle America, be they poor or excellent, so let's just agree on that and put it aside. The question at hand is determining what those prospects are, both for the shorter term and longer term future. (I know, I know - the enterprising person doesn't care, or waste time worrying, about "conditions". At least that's what all the "success" books tell me. But we're interested in how it's going to be for the "average" American, not how it's going to be for Mr Enterprising-Take-No-Prisoners.)
Agreed.
While the myth of american success has certainly brought many immigrants to its shores - 'streets paved with gold', only to have its weaker groups end up in sweatshops and tenements, or worse, there has always been that 'dream'.
The problem is that when the dream becomes only that. It used to be, work hard, save your money, have a little luck, do well, give your kids an education so they can do better. Now its work hard, get into debt, load up your kids on student loans, hope for the best. Does that sound like a good plan to you?
10 years ago, it was a well know statistic that 25% of college graduates made less than an equivalent high school graduate without the college education. And that individual didn't have the crushing student loans to pay back. I wonder what the number is now? Its not like we have a lack of unskilled labor in this country (illegal americans, with regrets to that underrepresented population here on ET).
At a certain point, the costs do not yield sufficent returns. The value of education is diminished. And we have a big mess.
We have already diminished the value of a scientific and technical education in this country. Those people are hard to replace. And we export those brains to china, elsewhere, in the form of graduate students who take the positions that would have been offered to american students (if they had only wanted them, which they don't. Our society has embarrased most smart kids out of going into the technical fields and instead steered them into finance, business, law, and medicine.)
When the middle class begins emigrating, that's the last straw. As much as I love this country, for my children's sake, I may choose a more stable situation.
While the myth of american success has certainly brought many immigrants to its shores - 'streets paved with gold', only to have its weaker groups end up in sweatshops and tenements, or worse, there has always been that 'dream'.
The problem is that when the dream becomes only that. It used to be, work hard, save your money, have a little luck, do well, give your kids an education so they can do better. Now its work hard, get into debt, load up your kids on student loans, hope for the best. Does that sound like a good plan to you?
10 years ago, it was a well know statistic that 25% of college graduates made less than an equivalent high school graduate without the college education. And that individual didn't have the crushing student loans to pay back. I wonder what the number is now? Its not like we have a lack of unskilled labor in this country (illegal americans, with regrets to that underrepresented population here on ET).
At a certain point, the costs do not yield sufficent returns. The value of education is diminished. And we have a big mess.
We have already diminished the value of a scientific and technical education in this country. Those people are hard to replace. And we export those brains to china, elsewhere, in the form of graduate students who take the positions that would have been offered to american students (if they had only wanted them, which they don't. Our society has embarrased most smart kids out of going into the technical fields and instead steered them into finance, business, law, and medicine.)
When the middle class begins emigrating, that's the last straw. As much as I love this country, for my children's sake, I may choose a more stable situation.
Ah, but see, Michael Dell is the average guy. Go through the Nadaq 100 companies. Almost all started by "average" guys.
Yes, a lot fail, but that "failure" is so much better in the US than any other place in the world. In most of the world a person can "only" dream. No chance of ever being Dell. Not even allowed to try.
Examples are given of high student loans, credit card debt, big house/car payments. These are discipline problems, not economic problems.
No one has promised a cushy job if you go to college!!! One has to take responsibility for your own well being and future.
There are literally thousands of jobs that one can make money doing. There are plenty of state/city colleges that are very inexpensive.
Just the opinions and post on this thread says a lot about the 95% failure rate of traders. There seems to be absolutely no discipline exhibited in any business plan.
People are complaining about the cost to get an Engineering Degree from a well known college and then no one will pay me enough to pay off my student loans, buy a new car and a new house. Well, DUH!!
LOOK FOR A CAREER THAT PAYS ENOUGH TO SATISFY YOU!!!
Quit whining.
SteveD
Yes, a lot fail, but that "failure" is so much better in the US than any other place in the world. In most of the world a person can "only" dream. No chance of ever being Dell. Not even allowed to try.
Examples are given of high student loans, credit card debt, big house/car payments. These are discipline problems, not economic problems.
No one has promised a cushy job if you go to college!!! One has to take responsibility for your own well being and future.
There are literally thousands of jobs that one can make money doing. There are plenty of state/city colleges that are very inexpensive.
Just the opinions and post on this thread says a lot about the 95% failure rate of traders. There seems to be absolutely no discipline exhibited in any business plan.
People are complaining about the cost to get an Engineering Degree from a well known college and then no one will pay me enough to pay off my student loans, buy a new car and a new house. Well, DUH!!
LOOK FOR A CAREER THAT PAYS ENOUGH TO SATISFY YOU!!!
Quit whining.
SteveD