Middle class revolt

[spect8or]

Quote from Mike805:

To the poster who talked about emigrating to Australia - I believe they are actually giving away visa's to eduacted people at the moment and calling it a "educated workforce migration" or something similar.

Yeah, true. We're getting sold that "we need more workers" bill of goods, too.

And yeah, a degree and some experience gives you great chances. Still preferable if you're from somewhere like Burkina Faso, though (better for "diversity" and all that).

- Hardly anyone goes to college - it is rare.

Lol. I don't know which is funnier: that you would be told this, or that you'd believe it.

It is hardly "rare". I'm pretty sure people here attend university at rates at least as high as those in the US; and, when you consider that some 50% of tuition here is government funded, and that the goverment extends interest free loans to cover the rest (everyone is eligible) and that goverment stipends are available to most students, I would be willing to bet university education rates are higher than the US. Since you didn't provide numbers, rather just the opinion of a couple of plumbers (like, they'd know), I guess it doesn't matter.

- Plumbers get paid very well, almost the equivalent of engineers.

Not quite. Most engineering jobs still pay pretty well. We'll see how long that lasts after our government's "we need more workers" visa scam (pretty much like the US H1B fiasco) starts to take effect. (Yeah, employers aren't supposed to pay below market wages. But US evidence seems to indicate there's a bit of a disconnect between what employers are supposed to pay and what they do pay.)

- The tax rate is close to 50%.

Well, consider that there are no state taxes. And the top rate is 48.5%, not 50%, though it does begin once income reaches $50k, which is, admittedly, rather early.

- Socialized medicine (it's free).

Yeah, but someone is paying for it (see above) - but not me.

In context, they do not have a technological workforce and need educated people to immigrate hence they set up governmental programs to initiate this.

God that is such bullshit. We don't need anyone. Why don't you take a trip out here, Mike, and see the kind of country this (supposedly) "uneducated" workforce built. Go tell the Japanese they need more workers - but don't be offended if they laugh you out of the building.

 

[spect8or]

As for the middle class, as someone suggested, it would be a good idea to start some belt tightening. Depending on how things play out, that belt may need to stay permanently tightened.

Middle classes are a rare thing, even today. Historically, virtually non-existant. Really, the modern middle class has really only taken shape since WW2. I think the jury's still out on whether middle classes are viable for the long term.

Don't get me wrong, I like having a middle class (why wouldn't I, I'm part of it?). I just think they're a bit "unnatural", which is why libertarians get up my nose a bit with their phony assurances that "everything will be fine" if we just trust the market in every respect, all of the time. That's probably pretty fanciful and a heck of a big risk considering what's at stake. It may just take a bit of "interventionism" to keep the middle class viable. What seems rather certain, given the way events have been playing out, is that, even while "viable", most middle Americans (or middle anywhereians) are probably going to have to put a dampener on their dreams of upward mobility, at least for the foreseeable future.

 

[prt_systems]

Quote from spect8or:

.... Why don't you take a trip out here, Mike, and see the kind of country this (supposedly) "uneducated" workforce built. ...

Lets see, Australian National University Canberra right ? I worked with some very able people from there if i remember correctly. I also worked recently with an engineering firm from sydney that designed a new piece of automation equipment for export to the US - seems nobody here could come up with the design ....

I think there is more than just ranching surfing and plumbing going on down under ....

 

[Mike805]

Quote from spect8or:

God that is such bullshit. We don't need anyone. Why don't you take a trip out here, Mike, and see the kind of country this (supposedly) "uneducated" workforce built. Go tell the Japanese they need more workers - but don't be offended if they laugh you out of the building.

I plan on moving there within the next five years FYI. Maybe the opinions I recieved were from a biased sample.

Here's a fact:

I filled out a visa request that stated in plain english:

"... in demand of a technological workforce...". A point system was in effect where you had to accumulate a certain number of points for qualification for a visa. Points were awarded for higher education and engineering related work experience more so than other types of experience.

I will post the link when I find it. I never said that Austrailia didn't already have a technological capacity, I said that government is initiating a visa program because of DEMAND for skilled labor.

Don't take it so personally buddy, I have no opinions about the people of Austrailia and none about you. I am going off of what I have learned in applying for a visa.

I do think that 48% is f--kin ridiculous though.

"In context, they do not have a technological workforce and need educated people to immigrate hence they set up governmental programs to initiate this."

I guess that sounds too harsh. I take it back, I mis-spoke. Apologies to anyone that this offended.

 

[Mike805]

Here's the link I was referring to:

http://www.australia-migration.com/page/Skills_visa_overview/38

 

[le140]

If you really work hard, learn how to live below your means, anyone could have a good life in the US... tell me another country that gives you this opportunity?

(need a job? how hard could it be to find the field that is paying well/in demand and go to school to get that job? ) You just have to put in the time. Going to school is practically free here in the US, 2 years at a local college, transfer to state system and you are done. All 4 yrs are staying at home and suck up to the mom/dad and obeying their rules...of course your parents will say yes to that route. To get there on the cheap, there is a price for everything. And 300K per degree ?... why would anyone even paying that kind of money is beyond me.

Anyway, the middle class are screaming and yelling because no one is helping them? LOL

that's life.

 

[TrendyMohawk]

-US has the best higher education in the world because it is expensive and not under the thumb of government and politicians. Harvard and Princeton give free rides to kids with low income parents. A pharmacy or Radiology Technologist major at a low ranking and cheap state school might have a more lucrative career than a student with a degree from an expensive brand name school. Most Ivy League PhD's don't make enough money to fill their Yugo tank.
-If you don't want to spend money on education and don't like burger grease: become a bricklayer or a roughneck. Wyoming cannot find enough people to do the work. Roughnecks make $50k in their first year.
-The bottom line is that there are plenty of high paying middle class jobs with job security that go UNFILLED every year. I am not an hr guy, but even I know this. Examples: medical fields, skilled trades, high end high tech fields, etc.
-Someone could start off at a community college and in 6 years become an air traffic controller making $60k plus with great job security.
-The public is fixated on certain white collar careers that are not so rosy upon further examination. Example: Corporate Law. Few people can get into the job because one needs to graduate in the top quarter of a very expensive brand name school. Once one gets the job, they work their tail off for years for the remote shot of becoming partner. After several years of slave labor, most realize they are not on partnership track and do something else. There are tons of lawyers out there spending all weekend redacting (crossing off account numbers in documents). LA Law right? Public interest lawyers can make less than teachers.
-Portland is beautiful but the people are whiny, unrealistic and looking for entitlements. Oregon used to have the most generous welfare program in the US.

 

[SteveD]

Very well said.

Thoughts for the mind:

Migrate, mutate, adapt or die

If you do what you have always done, you will get what you have always gotten.

And my favorite: If you stand on the tracks, ignoring the facts, don't blame the wreck on the train.


SteveD

 

[TrendyMohawk]

The Bill of Rights says nothing about guaranteed employment that is fun, rewarding, fulfilling, high paying and with a kick butt benefit package. It does not matter what party is in power. Dream jobs will always be scarce.

People are hired to work because:
1. Employer does not want to do the work
2. Employer does not have the time to do the work
3. No one else can do the work (rare indeed)

 

[spect8or]

Addressing the structural changes taking place in the American labor market doesn't require waxing philosophical about the merits of hard work and enterprise, it requires answering the question of whether those structural changes are (a) inevitable and (b) a net benefit to middle America and (c) if they are neither (a) nor (b), should we perhaps attempt to "do" something about them.

I really can't see why people are getting so hung up on Portland and "its liberals". Forget about Portland, the actual city. It's just a metaphor for the post-industrial dream. And that dream, for increasing numbers of people, isn't unfolding according to the script and they want to know why. Isn't that the most normal thing in the world - people questioning why the future they were "promised" (or led to believe in) isn't materializing?

The Next Big Thing in the Perpetual March of Technological Progress hasn't really happened yet, or maybe it's happening but is yet to hit the big time, but for the fist time in a long time it's becoming sensible to ask, when it happens, will it happen in America? I don't think there's any guarantee of that. America just isn't as exceptional as it once was - the others have been catching up and, if the trend continues, are on course to overtake. Maybe Americans are going to have to learn to sit by like East Berliners and watch Progress happen elsewhere.

You can call the people that raise these sorts of questions all sorts of names, like "lazy" and "whining", but they're not going away. And if you don't help them answer the questions in a reasonable sort of a way, you really do risk having them turn to populism.