Middle class revolt

[prt_systems]

Quote from Mike805:

... These are some of the most demanding and challenging schools in the world and it requires a certain dedication and motivation to complete the programs there.

....What does matter is that they are constantly refining their skill set and always learning. There is no substitute for motivation and desire to learn.

..

No. Not really. The places you mention are expensive relative to their quality which has gone downhill in recent years .... but there are still quaility people coming out of those universities, just as there are quality people coming out of other places.

The most able dont have to "constantly refine their skillsets." They have already achieved what is needed to produce quality output. The gerbil wheel is for browbeating your average employees ......

 

[GTG]

true, BUT you not only have to be better, you have to be willing to work at the same wage. You might be better than the chinese guy, but at $30 an hour you have to be better than 3 of them combined which is much more difficult.

Software Development is probably one of the few fields where this is possible. One great programmer can easily be worth a dozen average programmers in terms of actual productivity. (Great programmers almost never work in IT departments btw.)

 

[swtrader]

Quote from Arnie:

I recall the late '70's they were saying the exact same thing. Detroit was getting their ass kicked by the imports, wages were down, laying guys off left and right, gas was rationed (you only got gas on odd or even days depending on the last numeral on your license plate). The prime rate got as high as 21% while I was selling real estate (or attempting too, anyway). Just before this I was living in Orlando and commuting to a construction job in Melbourne. I met guys who had worked for NASA, working construction jobs and even McDonalds. You could ride around Titusville and see whole subdivisons almost completley deserted. Walter Cronkite did a teevee special about how we would run out oil in the mid '80's. I attended a seminar on "creative" financing because everyone said the 30 year fixed rate mortgage was history. I met guys that lived in their cars and went downtown to soup lines. I really get pissed when people say things are bad now.

And guess what? A few years later this country saw the greatest bull market in it's history.

globalism was not as large an issue back then

and we didn't have ANYWHERE NEAR the debt load we have today, at national & personal level

Reagan, for all that people liked/didnt like about him, changed the mood and climate with a giant debt party that continues to this day (both political parties in on it)

Can we get out of this with a whole new level of borrowing, like we did back then? Or are we tapped out?

 

[prt_systems]

Quote from GTG:

Software Development is probably one of the few fields where this is possible. One great programmer can easily be worth a dozen average programmers in terms of actual productivity. (Great programmers almost never work in IT departments btw.)

Well... this used to be the case when one great programmer knew - through experience - a lot of tricks and techniques that others did not. Today, most programmers work at a much higher level and deal largely with pre-built components - even at software companies.

And, the other factor is that those three indian or chinese programmers are often just as good as anyone else ... at the end of the day you are stil outgunned three to one and you really have no hope of beating those folks on cost OR productivity.

 

[Mike805]

Quote from prt_systems:

No. Not really. The places you mention are expensive relative to their quality which has gone downhill in recent years .... but there are still quaility people coming out of those universities, just as there are quality people coming out of other places.

Why are these schools ranked at the very top in terms of engineering/science in both Graduate and Undergraduate curriculums?

I am beginning to think that you are ignoring common sense here. There is a reason that a higher percentage of graduates from those schools land jobs than those from other schools. Pick up a US News & World Report issue on top schools and the data is there. The better the school, the more likely you will 1:get a job out of school and 2:get a higher paying job out of school.

The most able dont have to "constantly refine their skillsets." They have already achieved what is needed to produce quality output. The gerbil wheel is for browbeating your average employees ...... [/QUOTE]

???Acheived what they already needed??? That is akin to saying "I've achevied what I already needed because I was born with it, I do not need to challenge myself or further my goals". That is the whole reason why the middle class can't break out of a mediocre mentality - it is because of thinking like that. Give me a break already. I cannot stand that attitude and, frankly, I'm annoyed that with your background you are complacent about such an attitude.

 

[Madison]

Quote from Mike805:


My view is that certain areas of the workforce, especially those consisting of what we are calling the middle class, are failing to adapt. This is natural selection on a global level - faster and cheaper will always get the job. I believe that given the proper mindset anyone can find good quality employment - the catch is you have to be BETTER than someone else. You have to improve your skills.

this is true -- however it does not relate to "outsourcing" as discussed here.

if American companies have found that these "naturally-selected" workers are so much better and more adaptable, then why don't they move their entire companies there? why go to the trouble and expense of maintaining headquarters and all the white-collars in the unadaptable US, given the poor mindset and all? and if the trade is so "free" then why can't all those better workers with such great "mindsets" just move to the US, where their skills will earn them the most money?

because it isn't about "better" or "natural selection" -- it's about cost. and cost is sexual harassment lawsuits, workers comp, child labor laws, ADA compliance, health care premiums, 401k matching, retirement benefits, unions, insurance, OSHA, social security taxes, courts, and whatever else that they can avoid by using dirt poor pseudo-slaves in the third world.

 

[Madison]

Quote from Mike805:

The better the school, the more likely you will 1:get a job out of school and 2:get a higher paying job out of school.

yes. the american education system has been reduced to a certification system. university is used as an entrance fee to a type of employment, and they've duped people into believing that more money means more qualified, enabling them to increase tuitions beyond all reason, and to saddle 18 yr-old kids with 20 yrs of school loan payments. no rational person would pay $45k/yr (post-tax!) for the educational value. and no institution that was really motivated by education could charge that.

 

[Mike805]

Quote from Madison:

if American companies have found that these "naturally-selected" workers are so much better and more adaptable, then why don't they move their entire companies there? why go to the trouble and expense of maintaining headquarters and all the white-collars in the unadaptable US, given the poor mindset and all? and if the trade is so "free" then why can't all those better workers with such great "mindsets" just move to the US, where their skills will earn them the most money?

Isn't chrysler moving some of thier plants to Canada to save on the 6k/employee US health care costs?

Outsourcing IMO is introducing global competition. Competition is a good thing IMO. Survival of the fittest is a form of competition. This is the only thought I am trying to get across.

I have not said nor do I believe that workers in one country are more adaptable than in any other, but some will work for LESS therefore making them a better value to a profit driven entity. How does one offset this valuation? IMO it is with a better skillset.

 

[SteveD]

The strength of this country is the ability for anyone to start up an enterprise of his own. If you have a perfect SAT score but decide you want to play professional baseball, you can go try to do it.

In China, a kid with a perfect SAT score is going where the Gov. tells him to go.

Look through the list of the Nasdaq 100. Most, if not all, are first generation companies. The founder is still in charge!! That is totally unbelievable and is non-existent in any other country.

You send you child to Ivy League school, pay $300,000 for MBA and can't get job. Whose fault is that? Did anyone analyze how tough job market is at top? Research on salaries? Average lawyer makes about $50,000 +/-. Walgreen is begging for pharmacist. Nurses are paid signing bonuses. But, alas, no glamour in those jobs. How about school teachers???

If you are in career that can be "outsourced" then why would you stand there and wait for the grim reaper? It is called a college EDUCATION!!!

Dell, Gates and Jobs are all college drop-outs, LOL.

So, if the great middle income population is not doing anything but sitting there with their finger in their ear waiting for the Gov to do something for them, I feel sorry for them.

But, I believe, that is not the case at all. Most have little enterprises going on from home. Some rent houses, Ebay type business, etc etc.

In fact, I think that their are more people doing non-traditional jobs than traditional jobs.

I think that the US debt as a percent of GDP is less than 3%. Same as person making $100,000 owing $3,000 on credit card.

Most of you flat earth types don't understand just how large US actually is.

China will have same problem as Japan did. These countries are too homogenous and do not adapt well to changing economical situations and conditions.

SteveD

 

[prt_systems]

Quote from Mike805:

..
The better the school, the more likely you will 1:get a job out of school and 2:get a higher paying job out of school.

.... That is the whole reason why the middle class can't break out of a mediocre mentality - it is because of thinking like that....

Not actually. Only a few are taken across a spectrum of schools and then, according to their ability not according to the school. Talk to some top tech firm recruiters some time they dont just pick from one or even ten schools .....

Actually the "whole reason " people dont break out is that they are relying on the technical gerbil wheel - getting stuck on the endless re-train, obsolescence, re-train treadmill. Another reason is that they are stuck believing that if they dont have a degree from caltech or stanford then they cant invent or excell. Top engineers and scientists dont believe these things nor do they get stuck : they operate at a bit higher level and discovery and invention is part of their job. People refine their skills based upon the work of these people .....