Middle class revolt

[Hydroblunt]

Quote from Mike805:

Forgive me if I don't communicate this the right way, I do not intend to sound offensive even though I know some of my opinions are such.

My view is that certain areas of the workforce, especially those consisting of what we are calling the middle class, are failing to adapt. This is natural selection on a global level - faster and cheaper will always get the job. I believe that given the proper mindset anyone can find good quality employment - the catch is you have to be BETTER than someone else. You have to improve your skills. A good analogy to trading where you always have to be improving your skills in order to survive. That is the way system has always worked. Globalization has introduced an entire new species (going with the evolution metaphor) into the US workforce. They work for less, work harder and in many cases are more motivated to learn new skills. This is where I bring up the lazyness notion - if you are not constantly improving your skills then someone will eventually do what you do BETTER and hence you are out of a job.

Australia IMO has a problem. They are borderline socialist and their people are not motivated to improve their skillsets. Hence less people go to get that advanced degree. Why would someone do something extra if there is no reward in it? The middle class in America has had some of this reward taken away by globalization but so what? I could be wrong but I sense that only the socialist leftist liberals are complaining about this. Simply put, you have to be more effective to suceed in today's society, this is a good thing IMO.

Dude, you are completely missing the whole concept.

It's about the cost of living, not the skill set. The US corporates will not even offer these same jobs to US residents at the same rates because the workforce would not be able to survive. Then add in the government regulations and anti-slave laws and you have your answer.
Since you claim to know the results of outsourcing, then you would know that their quality sucks. Talk to the call centers when you call customer service reps, they are horrible. The real reason behind the mass outsourcing is bonuses and kickbacks in the higher ups, not truly cheaper costs (I count quality as a factor). I know, I have seen this in action at least two times, it's a total scam that only benefits a couple higher ups and screws the middle workers. Wow, just like the trend of rich vs poor in this country since Mr. Bush.

Think of it logically. This is THE consumer nation. US companies cannot sustain their growth or even profitability if its consumers cannot generate the income. Everything has been held together by mass debt and trade deficit with China. There is your globalization at its core form. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Goodbye middle class, whatever that is anymore. If you live in a mortgaged house with a financed car and mass CC debt, you're not middle class anyway, just a pauper waiting to happen.

I would not be surprised to see an exodus from this country by foreign born Americans (like me). The cost of living here is rising too fast, while opportunity & wage growth diminishing. This country is becoming a debt trap waiting to explode.

 

[jamis359]

If there are so many "astute" traders on this board, then why aren't they challenging the myth of globalization? Gee, anyone who actually trades stocks should know that American factories have been humming along nicely, with sharply growing revenues and earnings.

Caterpillar -- 20 bil in revs in '02, on pace for $35 bil this year. They make tractors, generators and stuff. Basic industry is something the Chinese should be beating us at, but CAT continues to excel despite our expensive labor.

Oregon Steel Mills -- how can free trade explain the success of an American steel company? In two years the stock has gone from $2 to $27 and brought in over $1 bil in revenue last year. According to the free trade myth, all of America's steel mills have been closed for years.

Alcoa -- continues to be profitable despite flat topline revenues. They are opening joint ventures in China to produce aluminum there. How is it Alcoa has a competitive edge over China, despite China's low wages and lack of environmental regulations?

OK, I just poked three holes in the globalization urban myth. More on request.

American industry is not dead, folks!

 

[Optionpro007]

Hydro:

Who is moving where ?

Last time I checked people were risking their lives for a chance to have a better future in this country.

If you think for one moment that things are tough here, you have no idea how bad they are in other places.

Note that the high cost of living here only applies if you live in a big city.

No other country in the world gives the average Joe so many opportunities to succeed as this one does.

Quote from Hydroblunt:



I would not be surprised to see an exodus from this country by foreign born Americans (like me). The cost of living here is rising too fast, while opportunity & wage growth diminishing. This country is becoming a debt trap waiting to explode.

 

[dddooo]

Quote from jamis359:

OK, I just poked three holes in the globalization urban myth. More on request.

American industry is not dead, folks!

Jeez, a whole three manufacturing companies that are still based in the US. You're too modest, you did not just poke three holes in the globalization myth, you completely destroyed it. We're saved, we're not losing manufacturing jobs to cheap foreign labor, three companies are still here. Wow!!!

 

[dddooo]

Quote from optionpro007:

Hydro:

Who is moving where ?

Nobody's moving while we're borrowing money ($26,000 per every american already and counting), it's too much fun spending other people's money. The exodus will start when eventually the bills are going to come due.

PS Actually a lot of Indians moved back to India in the last few years, more professional opportunities over there.

 

[ElectricSavant]

In the information age, demographics are more easily tracked

but...

are the government officials really using the data to their advantage?..

I think we should send some traders "in" to straighten out the mess...

Michael B.

 

[Hydroblunt]

Quote from optionpro007:

Hydro:

Who is moving where ?

Last time I checked people were risking their lives for a chance to have a better future in this country.

And most of them end up working dead end jobs and stuck in the rat race. People come here under the illussion that money grows on trees and everyone is rich.

If you think for one moment that things are tough here, you have no idea how bad they are in other places.

I wasnt born here, I know exactly how it is. What I do notice is the tremendous opportunities that 3rd world countries offer nowdays in comparison to what is available here. You would be surprised how many foreign born Americans are transitioning back to the homes because of this fact. Check in which countries the most billionaires have been made in the last 10 years. It isnt USA.

Note that the high cost of living here only applies if you live in a big city.

Gas & healthcare? Real estate? Insurance rates? Beef prices? Hello, the big city is not another planet.

No other country in the world gives the average Joe so many opportunities to succeed as this one does.

Those days are over. Just take a look at the demographics of rich vs poor in the last 5 years.
This land of opportunity is not the same anymore. Nowdays it's an illusion to get the immigrants to work like dogs, throwing a bone here and there to keep the dream going.

By the time it becomes obvious to the masses that USA isn't where it's at anymore, it will be too late. And it is totally normal for a nation to mature, but USA is crumbling under its own filth. At least Europe has a decent bargain between the rich & the poor instead of the debt slavery being established here.

 

[prt_systems]

Quote from Mike805:

.... Also, creativity in problem solving does not exist overseas - I have dealt first hand with "engineers" in foriegn locales and I have found that they do not have the critical thinking skills that good US schools teach. This is a huge difference and the reason why most outsourced jobs are jobs ANYONE can do without a real college degree.

With the above in mind, I have zero patience for complainers. If you don't have top notch skills don't expect a good salary or good benefits - the bottom line is nobody owes you anything.

Well, your experiences simply do not match mine. I have run scientific research and software engineering teams and in some of these cases we used "outsourced" labor. The people were hardly incompetent and were easily the equal of any US based scientist or engineer both in direct knowledge and creative problem solving. I have also worked with teams overseas that did not have these qualities. Your blanket statements just sound self serving to me and dont reflect my experiences.

Propbably, on the research and engineering groups where I have worked 99% of people would not meet the grade: So, should I tell everyone that they need the skills of our group and need to have beared the risk burden of training just to have a job that pays enough to not be living paychekc to paycheck ?

I guess I have zero patience for people that think a Darwinian view of society is the best approach to engineering a better world.

 

[prt_systems]

Quote from Hydroblunt:

....
It's about the cost of living, not the skill set. The US corporates will not even offer these same jobs to US residents at the same rates because the workforce would not be able to survive. Then add in the government regulations and anti-slave laws and you have your answer.
....

This is exactly the correct analysis: As someone else pointed out ... "Simple Labor arbitrage.."

The US economy is changing: Like the horse and buggy, the card reader, etc etc. Business and labor specialities mature: we are now seeing that there are no "secrets" in engineering and science. That is, scientific and engineering research itself has matured to the point that the current pace of advance has slowed. With most useful knowledge deseminated there is little economic advantage and even very deep technical work looks for the lowest cost source. This could all change tomorrow with a new discovery but for the last few years(10-15) we have been in a lull ... and during this lull most applications (including new software systems) have been designed modeled and built to the point that outside of the defense business, where secrets can be hoarded, there are few new product or research niches left to exploit.

Edit: I should add that I am talking about physical sciences and mathematics. Medical/Biomedical research has been the exception to all this and continues to pull in researchers and to generate new ideas across several scientific disciplines: This is currently where the largest research dollars are being spent ....

 

[Mike805]

Quote from prt_systems:

Well, your experiences simply do not match mine. I have run scientific research and software engineering teams and in some of these cases we used "outsourced" labor. The people were hardly incompetent and were easily the equal of any US based scientist or engineer both in direct knowledge and creative problem solving. I have also worked with teams overseas that did not have these qualities. Your blanket statements just sound self serving to me and dont reflect my experiences.

I never called anyone anywhere incompetent. If you read what wrote carefully I said that the creative problem solving skills simply did not exist - that is not a blanket statement IMO and I by no means intend to discredit anyone. This can be attributed to communication barriers and contractual issues.

From my experience, real design work is not outsourced - the great people are brought into the US and given positions locally such that communication barriers (time zones, languages) are better handled.

The type of work outsourced is in many cases is busy work that you can teach to anyone with a certain aptitude.

I provide India as an example, specifically IIT, the best technology school in the world IMO - mainly due to how difficult it is to get in and make it. The grads I have worked with from this school are simply better employees with better skill sets to match. Our youth needs to compete with this type of immigrant otherwise the Darwinian model you disagree with will take over. Whether you like it or not, survival of the fittest is the MO of the corporate world.

Propbably, on the research and engineering groups where I have worked 99% of people would not meet the grade: So, should I tell everyone that they need the skills of our group and need to have beared the risk burden of training just to have a job that pays enough to not be living paychekc to paycheck ?[/QUOTE]

99% seems like a blanket statement. That number is way too high. I would put it at less than 30% from personal experience. Again I will say that the best people will have NO PROBLEM finding good jobs with good salaries.

I guess I have zero patience for people that think a Darwinian view of society is the best approach to engineering a better world. [/QUOTE]

I never said it was the best approach - I did say that that's the way it is. If you can't compete, there will always be someone willing to take your job. Again, just becuase you are american, have a degree, it does not entitle you to anything, you have to earn it just like anyone else.