Middle class revolt

[AAAintheBeltway]

Quote from dddooo:

Prices are even cheaper in Honduras, do you want to live there? If for example prices go down 5% and salaries go down 10% do you really think it's a good deal for this country? Cause that's pretty much what's happening.

American middle class is worse off than it was before, that's according to government statistics and Alan Greenspan and that already takes Walmart prices into account.

I was answering a question that had been posed, perhpas by you. There are clearly winners and losers, and the picture may change as you look at it over longer and longer time frames. I am not taking sides, as I find this a knotty problem. Clearly there are benefits to free trade, but I also think they tend to get overstated and the costs swept under the rug.

Pat Buchanan made a compelling statement to the effect that economic efficiency is not the only value we have to respect.

One problem that can be easily dealt with is the obscene compensation levels of top execs. I see no reason that we as a country have to accept the breakdown in corporate governance that has allowed corporate drones who manage to find their way to the top to make 10-15-100 million a year. It undermines our entire system. It is nothing but legalized theft, and the arguments that these exec's need to be incentivized or they just can't force themselves to get out of bed are an insult to the workers of this country.

 

[trade4succes]

Quote from jmccain:

It goes to fund the deficit of our government. However, since you are the one with the brain power, please explain how running trillion dollar deficits and financing them at the cost of your country's middle class is a viable long term strategy.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9377813/site/newsweek/

isn't it a good thing that, *if* there is a deficit, it gets funded somehow? i mean how would US look like with an unfunded deficit? 30's comes to mind

 

[jmccain]

These people expect their money back, with interest. It's not a gift or anything. Paying all that back will be though when there's nothing left to sell.

Quote from trade4succes:

isn't it a good thing that, *if* there is a deficit, it gets funded somehow? i mean how would US look like with an unfunded deficit? 30's comes to mind

 

[Free Thinker]

Quote from jmccain:

These people expect their money back, with interest. It's not a gift or anything. Paying all that back will be though when there's nothing left to sell.

think currency devaluation over time. we pay them back with dollars that are worth much less.

 

[Mike805]

To the poster who talked about emigrating to Australia - I believe they are actually giving away visa's to eduacted people at the moment and calling it a "educated workforce migration" or something similar.

I bring this up because I have a few friends in Oz and I got to spend some time with them a while back. I've never been to Austrailia but the general dynamics of education/career were as follows (as told to me by an IT guy and two plumbers who all have grown up there):

- Hardly anyone goes to college - it is rare.

- Plumbers get paid very well, almost the equivalent of engineers.

- The tax rate is close to 50%.

- Socialized medicine (it's free).

In context, they do not have a technological workforce and need educated people to immigrate hence they set up governmental programs to initiate this.

As far as the US and the middle class - well I just think we are just too f--king lazy as a country. I don't mean this in terms of hours worked but in terms of productivity per hour worked. The solution is to shorten the work week and demand higher productivity.

Most managers/execs at engineering companies I have been associated with did not have good experiences with outsourced labor. The communication barriers and the logistics made the time spent too large a burden. Also, creativity in problem solving does not exist overseas - I have dealt first hand with "engineers" in foriegn locales and I have found that they do not have the critical thinking skills that good US schools teach. This is a huge difference and the reason why most outsourced jobs are jobs ANYONE can do without a real college degree. Companies are paying less for "keyboard monkeys" as they are called. This is just good buisness sense - hire people that can think and outsource the jobs that require no thought.

With the above in mind, I have zero patience for complainers. If you don't have top notch skills don't expect a good salary or good benefits - the bottom line is nobody owes you anything.

I personally do not have any sympathy for the middle class.

 

[trade4succes]

Quote from jmccain:

These people expect their money back, with interest. It's not a gift or anything. Paying all that back will be though when there's nothing left to sell.

what do you mean nothing left to sell? US will pay back by US manufactured goods and/or services: hence more employment for the middle class.

 

[Thunderdog]

Quote from Mike805:

I personally do not have any sympathy for the middle class.

I think that you are painting with a fairly broad brush. There are many capable people whose careers have degenerated because of broad-based downsizing, rightsizing, or whatever is the current euphemism for corporate anorexia. Even good ideas can be taken to an extreme. If you think that only the lazy or unimaginative people have found themselves at the brown end of the stick, then I think that you are mistaken.

I think that the financial numbers will continue to look good as corporate America continues to experiment with just how much more straw the camel can carry (or can be outsourced to a cheaper camel abroad) until the animal's limbs start to buckle. Of course, the people responsible for the outcome will already have retired with the spoils of having generated such good short-term numbers. The proverbial bag will be left for others to hold. Until it is opened, it will be described as a triumph of capitalism, productivity and cost containment. The actual contents may in fact be somewhat less fragrant when opened.

At this rate, I don't think that the game is going to end well. Just my opinion.

 

[Mike805]

Quote from Thunderdog:

I think that you are painting with a fairly broad brush. There are many capable people whose careers have degenerated because of broad-based downsizing, rightsizing, or whatever is the current euphemism for corporate anorexia. Even good ideas can be taken to an extreme. If you think that only the lazy or unimaginative people have found themselves at the brown end of the stick, then I think that you are mistaken.

Forgive me if I don't communicate this the right way, I do not intend to sound offensive even though I know some of my opinions are such.

My view is that certain areas of the workforce, especially those consisting of what we are calling the middle class, are failing to adapt. This is natural selection on a global level - faster and cheaper will always get the job. I believe that given the proper mindset anyone can find good quality employment - the catch is you have to be BETTER than someone else. You have to improve your skills. A good analogy to trading where you always have to be improving your skills in order to survive. That is the way system has always worked. Globalization has introduced an entire new species (going with the evolution metaphor) into the US workforce. They work for less, work harder and in many cases are more motivated to learn new skills. This is where I bring up the lazyness notion - if you are not constantly improving your skills then someone will eventually do what you do BETTER and hence you are out of a job.

Australia IMO has a problem. They are borderline socialist and their people are not motivated to improve their skillsets. Hence less people go to get that advanced degree. Why would someone do something extra if there is no reward in it? The middle class in America has had some of this reward taken away by globalization but so what? I could be wrong but I sense that only the socialist leftist liberals are complaining about this. Simply put, you have to be more effective to suceed in today's society, this is a good thing IMO.

 

[Perseus]

QUOTE: "I believe that given the proper mindset anyone can find good quality employment - the catch is you have to be BETTER than someone else"

true, BUT you not only have to be better, you have to be willing to work at the same wage. You might be better than the chinese guy, but at $30 an hour you have to be better than 3 of them combined which is much more difficult.

secondly it is getting really hard to be better than foreigners at least at entry level as their education is catching up or surpassing ours.

 

[AAAintheBeltway]

Can anyone give us some background on outsourcing from europe? I'm guessing it is not as advanced as here, also there is a language barrrier for things like call centers or tech support, but given the expense and red tape of having employees in europe, I would think outsourcing of technical jobs would be even more attractive.