Middle class revolt

[murty]

Quote from dddooo:

...

If we are no longer to expect employers to provide affordable health insurance or decent pensions, what is the alternative? If the unrestrained forces of globalization don't benefit - and indeed, hurt - the broad middle class, what would you do to restrain them? If education and innovation are the answers, then what are the education and innovation strategies?

Really, what's the backup plan? [/B]

First, middle class people should stop complaining. Stop expecting govt to do everything. Dont expect businesses to give you great products and services for price you can afford. Please... They are in business to make profit, not to help you.

Globalization is a great thing when done correctly. Outsourcing is also great if done for correct reasons.

Currently, globalization is led by corporate leaders. Thats the mistake. They will globalize for their benefit, not for the benefit of middle class people. How can you lead globalization? Just buy things from other countries directly. Thanks to the Internet.

Outsourcing, again led by corporate leaders who say they outsource, save a lot of money and pass the savings to consumers. And you people really believe that ? That phrase 'pass savings to consumers' cracks me up. They are in it for money, there is no way they are going to just pass free money to the middle class.

Outsourcing is currently done to cut corners (ie avoid QA, testing, no need to use well trained people, no regulations to meet, no labor laws etc). If you ever wondered why the hell all the software documentation or even the Windows error messages have so many typos or just bad English (Acer laptop error, for example: Command Not exist.), thats because the american companies outsourced and successfully cut corners.

Outsource healthcare. And things will change slowly. When legal positions, IB analysts and tax preparers are outsourced, why not healthcare ?

Govt IS people. That means educated people should take charge. Middle class must unite and form investment clubs (rather than relying on employer pensions), buy goods/services directly from other countries (ofcourse use caution on the Internet), even demand better hospital care as a group. Make it a group effort, by pass employers (corporations).

I am glad gas prices went up to $3+ in a way... it forces people to choose the gas station thats cheaper. Otherwise, people just buy school bus and fill it up at any gas station for whatever price and move on. Actually, does anybody think that school bus repainted is cooler than a Hummer ?

 

[jmccain]

My take is that US companies like MSFT, ORCL, HPQ etc... have been built by the ingenuity and hard work of highly skilled American workers. (Or at leat foreign labour that wanted to become American, move to the US, and contribute to the US economy, through the H1B program.)

Now however, the same people that have built these hugely succesful companies, are 'too expensive', 'too uneducated', too this, too that. I say, BS.

The CEOs of these companies are selling out the US competitive advantage so that their quarterly results look better. That's the short of it. The US can compete with anyone but not when it's own people are selling it down the river.

If we are at war, as Bush needs to remind us every 5 minutes, then people that sell out American knowledge to foreign powers, some of which are hard-core communists, should be treated as traitors. Perhaps it's harsh, but hey, war is war...

Quote from vhehn:

i guess we are a perfect example of why there will be no turning back and no solution. no one agrees what the reason for the problem is.

 

[1sfod-dtrader]

Quote from vhehn:

oregon is one of the most liberal states in america. they regulate business to death. they even have regulations that say you cant pump your own gas in that loony state.

Better check your assumptions here! Most people may be liberal and counter culture, yet the state government is primarily Republican!
Washington, it's northern neighbor, is highly democratic, and has twice the regulations on Business, yet the economy is much better! Why is this?
Comparing these two states is a very good study in the merits of both parties.
Washington comes out ahead of Oregon simply because it does not allow business to walk all over the people.

 

[prt_systems]

Quote from murty:

First, middle class people should stop complaining. Stop expecting govt to do everything. Dont expect businesses to give you great products and services for price you can afford. Please... They are in business to make profit, not to help you.

...

Exactly. Middle class people really dont complain much: that is the problem. A few law and policy changes could easily end the outsourcing fad. Companies would still make large profits: perhaps even larger if their buyers have more disposable income derived directly attributable from their jobs rather than from a whole host of activities that detract from on the job productivity.

Americans are quite smart in general and when conditions become too annoying and interlopers from outside the country attempt too much of a takover of the economy the reaction to change public/government policy will be swift and decisive.

I believe we are nearly at that tipping point.

 

[Free Thinker]

Quote from prt_systems:

Exactly. Middle class people really dont complain much: that is the problem. A few law and policy changes could easily end the outsourcing fad. Companies would still make large profits: perhaps even larger if their buyers have more disposable income derived directly attributable from their jobs rather than from a whole host of activities that detract from on the job productivity.

Americans are quite smart in general and when conditions become too annoying and interlopers from outside the country attempt too much of a takover of the economy the reaction to change public/government policy will be swift and decisive.

I believe we are nearly at that tipping point.

should we also pass laws against the japanese when they outsource auto production to america?

 

[prt_systems]

Quote from vhehn:

should we also pass laws against the japanese when they outsource auto production to america?

Dont know and this has nothing to do with my position. I said change policy. I do not agree with your position that we should outlaw foreign manufactuing or assembly.

Why do you think that such a move would be a good idea ?

 

[QQQShort]

Quote from prt_systems:

Yes. So, 24K for tuition only - no books, computers, housing, food. Ever try to work 40 hours a week and get all your studying in for something like engineering, or pre-med, or science ? I did it: a lot of people didn't make it and not because they were dumb.

What we will soon see in the US is companies forced to re-start apprentice programs and company sponsored training with time off for their employees to accomplish the tasks on company time. They will also start paying for undergraduate schooling etc. I see a shift in the definition of high school from wasted time to producing immediately productive qualified workers - taking this business away from current universities undergrad curriculums: this is precisely how many other countries handle things....

The post i responded to quoted a $300k price tag for college education tuition. My point was there is no need to spend anywhere near that much.

Furthermore, with the benefit of scholarships, my son's first year at University of Washington cost about $2k for tuition; books added about $1k to the cost. The only way that could be made significantly cheaper is for them to pay him to attend.

$3k a year for an excellent college education ... sounds reasonable to me. Certainly, "living" costs (food, housing, entertainment) boost the price, however, many of those costs would be incurred regardless.

The American university system is considered the best in the world, as recently described in The Economist. We should be careful not to fix something that isn't broke.

 

[Free Thinker]

Quote from prt_systems:

Dont know and this has nothing to do with my position. I said change policy. I do not agree with your position that we should outlaw foreign manufactuing or assembly.

Why do you think that such a move would be a good idea ?

i dont but you said " A few law and policy changes could easily end the outsourcing fad. ". doesnt this work both ways?

 

[Free Thinker]

Quote from QQQShort:

The post i responded to quoted a $300k price tag for college education tuition. My point was there is no need to spend anywhere near that much.

Furthermore, with the benefit of scholarships, my son's first year at University of Washington cost about $2k for tuition; books added about $1k to the cost. The only way that could be made significantly cheaper is for them to pay him to attend.

$3k a year for an excellent college education ... sounds reasonable to me. Certainly, "living" costs (food, housing, entertainment) boost the price, however, many of those costs would be incurred regardless.

The American university system is considered the best in the world, as recently described in The Economist. We should be careful not to fix something that isn't broke.

sounds almost like a gift to me.

 

[prt_systems]

Quote from QQQShort:


Furthermore, with the benefit of scholarships, my son's first year at University of Washington cost about $2k for tuition; books added about $1k to the cost. The only way that could be made significantly cheaper is for them to pay him to attend.
...
The American university system is considered the best in the world, as recently described in The Economist. We should be careful not to fix something that isn't broke.

Sounds like you are assuming that most people that go to college have a 2K bill: that is not the case. Yes living costs would be incurred anyway - who pays for them unless the students work ? Where will they work to get those living expenses and still have time to study - unless they choose some worthless major that requires little study time.

Ever think that people are choosing non-technical degree programs becouse they cant afford the alternative ?

Start thinking like a student with no funds and maybe you will begin to see the problem.