Michael Lewis Article on Public Pensions

government on the other side of the table is not free market negotiation since unlike private industry salaries t gov't workers do not come out of their pockets. instead look at as a bribe to get them to vote for you in the next election.
 
Quote from monstimal:

I don't understand why people get so mad at the firemen, teachers, and unions. What happened to free market principles and "Greed is good"? These people are trying to get the best deal they can and this is what they were given.
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If you read the article, the inescapable conclusion is that there is/was no free market to compete against the escalating salaries and guaranteed pension benefits. I mean this is just common sense. The private sector and small business owner knows the realities of the free market and the competitive global marketplace.

The public sector exists in an oblivious bubble with a bunch of paid off politicians who will vote in favor of whatever the unions demand so long as it prolongs his/her political career. The first part of the article did a pretty good job of proving this to be the case.
 
Quote from zdreg:

government on the other side of the table is not free market negotiation since unlike private industry salaries t gov't workers do not come out of their pockets. instead look at as a bribe to get them to vote for you in the next election.
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The Argentina scenario looks more likely by the day doesn't it?
 
Ok that's fine, but why are you mad at the firemen and teachers. The problem was with the politicians. You live in a democracy. We got exactly what the majority of people asked for, they didn't want responsible people and still don't. They want someone who make them feel good. We don't want problem solvers or smart people, we want someone who hates the bogeyman.
 
Quote from monstimal:

I don't understand why people get so mad at the firemen, teachers, and unions. What happened to free market principles and "Greed is good"? These people are trying to get the best deal they can and this is what they were given.

Granted, there are some cases of blatant corruption or where a guy gets a job for 1 day and gets some big pension out of it, but why the anger at the fireman? There were drawbacks to his situation, it was difficult to go and get a new job in the middle of his career or relocate, he had a poor negotiating position on raises.... But most of all, someone offered him something and he agreed to it. Now it's time for him to collect and we're all crying.

I'd like to propose that there might be another villain here. All these years money was being taken from that fireman's paycheck, taken by someone who was paying himself very handsomely to "manage" that money knowing full well the future obligations that he had agreed to. He went on golf trips, fancy conferences in Aspen, and was bribed left and right while collecting a very nice salary that also set up his own retirement which he is now probably enjoying much more comfortably than any teacher or fireman.

But he failed in his promised duty to return enough money to fulfill the promise to the fireman. Now, I'm sympathetic to his complaints that such-and-such fund didn't return what he thought it would...but that was the whole point of his job. I personally don't think we should be making the defined benefit guarantees that we are, but I don't see how we can be angry at the people who are just asking us to fulfill our promise.
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Free market principles? What fire-company do you work for?
 
Quote from denner:

The Argentina scenario looks more likely by the day doesn't it?
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thanks for the soft ball.

I started the the thread in august 2010 is the US the next argentina.
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=204524&highlight=argentina

my 1st post in that thread was

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/07/y...&ref=your-money

The Coming Class War Over Public Pensions
By RON LIEBER

There’s a class war coming to the world of government pensions.

The haves are retirees who were once state or municipal workers. Their seemingly guaranteed and ever-escalating monthly pension benefits are breaking budgets nationwide.

The have-nots are taxpayers who don’t have generous pensions. Their 401(k)s or individual retirement accounts have taken a real beating in recent years and are not guaranteed. And soon, many of those people will be paying higher taxes or getting fewer state services as their states put more money aside to cover those pension checks.

At stake is at least $1 trillion. That’s trillion, with a “t,” as in titanic and terrifying.

The figure comes from a study by the Pew Center on the States that came out in February. Pew estimated a $1 trillion gap as of fiscal 2008 between what states had promised workers in the way of retiree pension, health care and other benefits and the money they currently had to pay for it all. And some economists say that Pew is too conservative and the problem is two or three times as large.

So a question of extraordinary financial, political, legal and moral complexity emerges, something that every one of us will be taking into town meetings and voting booths for years to come: Given how wrong past pension projections were, who should pay to fill the 13-figure financing gap?

Consider what’s going on in Colorado — and what is likely to unfold in other states and municipalities around the country......
 
Quote from KINGOFSHORTS:

Weird cause the Lifeguard jobs posted by the country pay no where near 225K.

From what I see teachers start out at 32K a year, the first 10 years they do not get more than a 1% annual raise then after the first 10 years they start getting a 3-4% cola.

and if they get a higher degree they could get some pay jumps of 4K per degree.


So some teacher that has been in the system 35 years is making 70K a year, do you think I am gonna get upset about it?

Shit a kid with an HS degree can start out making 35


can you post a photocopy of the payscale sheet for Laguna lifeguards?

I would like to see facts and figures.


and like I say, if they pay 225K to be a lifeguard, why dont you apply? sounds like easy money.
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Where do kids get $35K right out of high school...with extremely generous benefits, summer vacations, very early retirements, etc.? I'm sure many will line up if you can tell them where to apply.

Oh wait...they need to get an Elementary Ed degree first. Way cool, since that's even easier than high school was!

I used to have neighbors who were both teachers. One taught gifted students while the other taught P.E. in a very safe, upper-middle class school system. They always came home hours before most of the other neighbors and will surely retire much sooner. Comparing their salaries to other neighbors (lawyers, IT specialists, etc.) who probably worked twice as many hours in a year is quite the apples-to-oranges thing.
 
Quote from KINGOFSHORTS:

Weird cause the Lifeguard jobs posted by the country pay no where near 225K.

From what I see teachers start out at 32K a year, the first 10 years they do not get more than a 1% annual raise then after the first 10 years they start getting a 3-4% cola.

and if they get a higher degree they could get some pay jumps of 4K per degree.


So some teacher that has been in the system 35 years is making 70K a year, do you think I am gonna get upset about it?

Shit a kid with an HS degree can start out making 35


can you post a photocopy of the payscale sheet for Laguna lifeguards?

I would like to see facts and figures.


and like I say, if they pay 225K to be a lifeguard, why dont you apply? sounds like easy money.
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My bad, it was Newport Beach: http://articles.ocregister.com/2011-05-13/news/29544041_1_lifeguards-brent-jacobsen-newport-beach

And again, you're missing the point or are simply too thick to entertain a logical discussion.
 
Quote from zdreg:

every cent that teachers make could be justified if they produced superior students. as glorified baby sitters,whatever the reason, they are vastly over paid.

don't forget the various pension benefits they receive including exemption from state and local taxes.
in nyc teachers are retiring on 90k pension.

"35 years from now 57K wont buy squat.
it is a ridiculous statement since salaries go up every year.
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A young boy or girl is usually a very good student. They learn exactly what they're taught at home.
 
I can't find it presently, but the illiteracy rate among US teachers is staggering... functional illiteracy approaching 20%. This guy speaks openly about it:

http://www.johncorcoranfoundation.com/news.htm

This is the result if zero-transparency in local govt. You have boards with the power to set arbitrary and unsustainable wages and benefits... benes for illiterate teachers producing illiterate grads.

F this. Are you satisfied that your local tax dollars are being put to good use?
 
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