Why would someone that knows how to trade submit himself to a position where he has a boss or partner? That makes no sense.
But that's just my opinion. I know you won't agree with me and that's OK. Wish you all the best.
Mentorship (4th year still not profitable)
- Thread starter iamnewuser911
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But that's just my opinion. I know you won't agree with me and that's OK. Wish you all the best.
Why would someone that knows how to trade submit himself to a position where he has a boss or partner? That makes no sense.
But that's just my opinion. I know you won't agree with me and that's OK. Wish you all the best.
Only three legitimate reasons:
1. To trade stupidly large size. Which they encourage. I've seen prodigies that in a year's time went from trading 5 lots to trading thousand lots. Literally. And in a few years time they took everything. And since you're splitting the profits with the firm and you're paying normal untreated tax rates on regular income (no blended capital gains) you really should be trading stupidly large size.
2. To trade products and spaces that you as an independent almost certainly couldn't. I can tell you from personal experience that when I traded exchange cleared power and natural gas swaps (Clearport and LCH) at one of the firms I mentioned previously I had $12.5M of daily margin to play with.
3. If you're a quantitative trader and go to Jump for example you're going to get an ECN infrastructure that is freaking otherworldly. And there is also programming and hardware/software support aplenty.
For a quite a variety of reasons, actually, but I guess they mostly boil down to the main two mentioned, just above.
(Mine - in case you were thinking of asking - was that I was able to earn considerably more that way, by trading in far bigger size, while doing almost exactly the same things, and losing almost none of the benefits of self-employment. Others I know in similar positions have other, only slightly different reasons.)
That makes no sense.
But that's just my opinion.
Indeed ... and actually one with which many employed traders disagree.
(But in the context of this thread, it's all kind of academic: many prop-shops are very scammy outfits, and they're the only ones who are going to look at someone in his 4th year and not profitable as a trader. No disparagement intended, but it is what it is.)
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Why would someone that knows how to trade submit himself to a position where he has a boss or partner? That makes no sense.
But that's just my opinion. I know you won't agree with me and that's OK. Wish you all the best.
I was using close to a million dollars in margin with less than 100k to my name. I had autospreaders with dedicated servers way before exchanges hosted them. I had dinners with the heads of exchanges and access to some of the most competitive rates. I got to train people without using my capital and got a cut of their profits.
There’s 4 or 5 reasons why successful traders want to be part of a prop group
Again, an electronic proprietary futures trading firm registered with CME and ICE is a completely different animal than the equity prop firms so commonly advertised and talked about here on ET and elsewhere.
Apples and oranges.
By regulation the prop futures group cannot use the trader's (employee) capital. It must be the firm's capital at risk. In fact, the CME stipulates to these firms that the trader be paid as an employee on IRS Form W-2. I mean, many of them offer employee health insurance. Vacation time is up to you for the most part. I've seen guys take off for several weeks at a time.
Apples and oranges.
By regulation the prop futures group cannot use the trader's (employee) capital. It must be the firm's capital at risk. In fact, the CME stipulates to these firms that the trader be paid as an employee on IRS Form W-2. I mean, many of them offer employee health insurance. Vacation time is up to you for the most part. I've seen guys take off for several weeks at a time.
size kills....
and do not need to
can be achieved without prop firm
come on, many, if not most, employed traders are just executioners, they will not survive a day in our environment
100k is just peanuts
, and if we are talking about futures nothingspecial in the the size of marging that u got for them
so what.. most do need them at all
and i had dinner with my wife and do not give a damn about rates
did u take a share in their loss too?
i see that you try to differentiate yourself from the others who require trader to put up his own money...but it does not really matter for those who know what they doing (they will make money regardless) and for those who do not (they will loose regardless)
as for the fact that your traders employed with w2, again does not tells anything about trader's ability - whole wall street employs traders who can not trade - just a fact of life...
vacations ...lol .. it appears that we are living on different planets
I think you are missing the points to the answers to the questions related to the posters you have quoted.
If I was offered a salary to trade for a prop firm, why would I not take it? I am making money by trading, and win or lose I am still making money. Sure, if I kept losing for the firm, I would not be employed there for long. But I reckon' it takes a bit of the stress out of trading. I figure trading for a prop-firm for a salary is an in-between of trading your own money and trading in sim. You are stressed, but not as stressed?
Anyway, you appear to be argumentative for argument's sake.
Yes, I accept that ... just as I'm sure you accept that there are others, too, who aren't.
Size matters.
(Oops, did I say that out loud?
).I think you're missing his point(a point with which I personally agree).
He made it clear that the key thing is the definition of a trader, which in his book is "someone who trades for a living and uses his own money and no one else's".
To me, using OPM in order to minimize "stress" of depending solely in one's own money is admitting that one doesn't know what he is doing. Nothing wrong with that, it's just that this is not trading. To me that is just a con. But the one's to blame are the people who give money to others without considering the fact that if these "traders" really knew what they are doing, they would not need OPM. These "traders" are forcing nobody to give them money. So I have nothing against them. That's just logic.
Back to OP, yes I agree OP, who is not profitable after 4 years should benefit from joining a firm and learn from some of the professional traders.
However, heaven forbid, I actually agree with qxr1011 if you are really good and trade your own fund for a living. You don't need the headache of working for others. Of course if you want to be super rich, are a PM and collect a 2% fee on AUM it is a different story.