Meet the COVID Delta variant

[gaussian]

The truth is the vaccines are fine, you’re going live just fine if you get one and you’ll also probably be ok if you don’t. Every year people pass on the flu vaccine and no one goes around spreading nonsense about how it is going make you magnetic or whatever.

Yes, the problem is the actual antivax not the people who are suspect of the vaccine's newness. Unfortunately, due to the politicization of COVID they are being lumped together. People claiming its a 5G mind control virus, people claiming it turns you magnetic, people claiming it's designed to kill people in 1-2 years for some global cabal's blood lust, etc. All of these are so insane you have to think that they're a psyop and not just crazy people.

If you refuse to take a vaccine then why should a health insurance company or government pay for your medical expenses when you catch the disease?

Probably because insurance companies can't choose what they cover and don't cover when it comes to saving your life (thanks Obama).

society should not be responsible for paying for your poor decision.

I'd probably be more keen to take experimental drugs if I could directly sue the pharma company for several hundred million dollars if I was injured. Unfortunately the government's arbitration committee limits the damages to paltry sums and lots of "whoops we are very sorry". In this light, employers that require vaccinations with unapproved drugs to continue employment should be placed in full liability for any, even minor, injury caused through the injection of the vaccine. You will quickly find people changing their tune on using the population as veritable guinea pigs (well, rhesus monkeys in this case) if we actually allowed suing of companies and employers for literally everything they are worth, plus whatever their executive board of directors personally owns.

 

[Frederick Foresight]

I have no problem with you not taking a vaccine...

I am not attributing this to you per se, but some of what you wrote can get caught up in it. My issue is that I see a lot of people who don’t want to get the vaccine spreading very dubious and false information about the vaccine as if they feel they have to convince other people to sooth their own doubts.

Why not? Unvaccinated people are not just spreading false information; they're also spreading the virus and allowing it to stretch its legs and mutate. Unless they go live among themselves on an island, I have a problem with them.

 

[UsualName]

Why not? Unvaccinated people are not just spreading false information; they're also spreading the virus and allowing it to stretch its legs and mutate. Unless they go live among themselves on an island, I have a problem with them.

Well because in these times you have to look to your circle of loved ones and do what’s best for you and yours. The vaccines are effective enough to hold off severe disease and that is good enough to keep my loved ones safe right now.

Now as the virus is moving through the unvaccinated many will feel this disease is not a joke and either, survive infection and get immunity or not. I get it’s cold blooded but it’s their choice and right now I have the tools I need to protect me and mines and that’s the best we can do.

 

[PintoFire]

I'd probably be more keen to take experimental drugs if I could directly sue the pharma company for several hundred million dollars if I was injured. Unfortunately the government's arbitration committee limits the damages to paltry sums and lots of "whoops we are very sorry". In this light, employers that require vaccinations with unapproved drugs to continue employment should be placed in full liability for any, even minor, injury caused through the injection of the vaccine. You will quickly find people changing their tune on using the population as veritable guinea pigs if we actually allowed suing of companies and employers for literally everything they are worth, plus whatever their executive board of directors personally owns.

Completely agree. I was about to post this too, very well said.

 

[gaussian]

Now as the virus is moving through the unvaccinated many will feel this disease is not a joke and either, survive infection and get immunity or not. I get it’s cold blooded but it’s their choice and right now I have the tools I need to protect me and mines and that’s the best we can do.

But if it's true that vaccines do not prevent infection and asymptomatic transmission then you are also a vector that allows the virus to mutate. How long then would it take for asymptomatic transmission to defeat the vaccine? Supposing this is true, should we all never go outside again?

 

[Frederick Foresight]

Well because in these times you have to look to your circle of loved ones and do what’s best for you and yours. The vaccines are effective enough to hold off severe disease and that is good enough to keep my loved ones safe right now.

Now as the virus is moving through the unvaccinated many will feel this disease is not a joke and either, survive infection and get immunity or not. I get it’s cold blooded but it’s their choice and right now I have the tools I need to protect me and mines and that’s the best we can do.

Fully vaccinated people have also died of COVID-19. It's rare, but it happens. The unvaccinated are not helping.

 

[UsualName]

But if it's true that vaccines do not prevent infection and asymptomatic transmission then you are also a vector that allows the virus to mutate. How long then would it take for asymptomatic transmission to defeat the vaccine? Supposing this is true, should we all never go outside again?

See there you go with some nonsense stuff. Here in the US, our vaccines are effective and the data showed that vaccines prevent infection and spread at a very high rate. This was the data our CDC relied on when it removed its mask guidance. FYI: don’t waste your time with a one in a million breakthrough story to try to disprove me, that happens but it’s actually to be expected and 94% is extremely high efficacy.

Now the Chinese vaccines are a different story. Those are your preferred vaccines, as they use dead virus. Those vaccines are showing to prevent mortality well enough in the real world but they are not showing to prevent infection and spread. We are seeing this in the UAE where they are on round three of immunizations and offering the mRNAs to those already vaccinated with one of the sino versions.

I will admit, I don’t keep up with the Sputnik vaccine though. You’ll have to ask @TreeFrogTrader about that, as he is our resident Putin kgb plant.

 

[UsualName]

Fully vaccinated people have also died of COVID-19. It's rare, but it happens. The unvaccinated are not helping.

Well yes. That is true some people are genetically different or have an immune system too weak to generate a strong enough response. It’s very low but yes that will happen.

 

[TreeFrogTrader]

There should be some clear consequences for rejecting being vaccinated .

One of the flies in the ointment that mucks up this argument a bit- for now anyway- is that people/commentators often forget that these are all just vaccines that have emergency/provisional approval.

So in effect, people are arguing that the heavy hand of government or corporations or public policy be used to force consequences on people who will not take a vaccine where even the government is not willing to give full approval.

I have taken the vaccine but it is more from a libertarian point of view where people do their own research and thinking and decide for themselves. So even though I decided to be vaccinated, I am still able to look over at others and see that it is not pretty when the government is getting heavy handed with people for not taking drugs/vaccines that are fully approved.

I may have missed a beat and one of the vaccines may have recently received full approval. If so, point that out. Not saying that changes an anti-vaxxers or personal choicers right to decide free from undue punishment, just that prior to the government even fully approving a vaccine it is out of order to get heavy handed with anyone. For example, denying insurance for the pre-existing condition of not having taken a drug or vaccine that is not fully approved per your example.

 

[gaussian]

See there you go with some nonsense stuff. Here in the US, our vaccines are effective and the data showed that vaccines prevent infection and spread at a very high rate. This was the data our CDC relied on when it removed its mask guidance. FYI: don’t waste your time with a one in a million breakthrough story to try to disprove me, that happens but it’s actually to be expected and 94% is extremely high efficacy.

I linked one study in my previous post. It's more than one in a million.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33320052/

Here it is again. It has 8 citations and is relatively new which indicates that other scientists seem to believe what they have to say. Unfortunately, it's very clear you didn't read any of my post and immediately jumped to "you're just citing the same thing the antivaxxers cite". Please either purchase the paper, or through your university (if you're enrolled), use the library to view it. It's not non-sense, and if this continues to be shown in studies it virtually negates any real effect the current generation of vaccines actually have (this all assuming vaccine efficacy trials were actually controlled properly which itself is even up for debate). In this light the current generation of vaccines would not be vaccines, but rather ad-hoc prophylaxis. Useful, but does not stop the pandemic.

Of course, these things would've been caught in phase 3/4 trials but it seems like we've moved beyond those for this allegedly world-ending virus.