meditation as a way to calm trading angsts

Quote from Shrewd Dude:


all that stuff is bs



yes. the amazing randi has had a big $$ challenge going on for sometime now for anyone who can demonstrate paranormal powers.

no one has EVER claimed the prize--- not kreskin, geller or anyone.

i suggest reading "flim flam" by james (amazing) randi. its a great read and sheds light on these issues.

best,

surfer:)
 
Quote from Yannis:



Wally,

Although I agree with you in principle, I have to admit to some hesitation to accepting this statement at face value unchallenged.

As you may know, there's a power struggle between the "hard sciences" like chemistry, physics, etc, and the "soft sciences" like psychology, sociology, etc, as to what constitutes "scientific proof."

Is there "hard science" and "soft science"? Karl Popper said if a theory can't be falsified it isn't science (roughly spoken). The only proof is a failed falsification.


The physicists etc favor what they call "objective proof," although no proof can be totally objective because human beings ultimately have to evaluate the data the lead us to believe that the proof was objective (witness the ongoing disagreements between the proponents of quantum mechanics and those of special relativity, not to mention the theory of general relativity which is treated as being true although there has been no real proof at all, just elegant mathematics.)

A theory is just a theory until it is proven. Einstein didn't get his Nobel prize for the relativity theory.

Physics uses models do describe the world. There can be several models that don't fit together for the same phenomenon, but both can be valid.
Osiander wrote in a preface to Kopernikus' work "it is not necessary that these hypotheses are true, they don't even have to be probable, it's sufficient that the observations and calculations match." Things haven't changed since then. So I don't see a problem in having two theories for one phenomenon.

On the other hand, a psychologist is perfectly content in getting to a "inter-subjective proof" where may subjects agree that a certain subjective phenomemon works. For example, what is the proof that humans dream?
To proof this you have to define what a dream is.

That love is (one of) the strongest motivation(s) we can have?
That should be feasible by putting test persons into a situations with concurrent feelings. And don't complain if you don't like the result of this test.

Everything that Freud, Young, et al wrote and practiced? These human experiences are accepted solely on the basis of inter-subjective agreement: many people agree that these things happen to them.
Freud made the assumption that many things can be explained by childhood memories. Today it is proven that memories are usually biased ("good old times") and sometimes wrong or even made up. So you have to be careful about techniques that dig up old memories because they could be made up in the process of digging up.

(...frankly, imo, the relevance of technical analysis to successful trading falls in the same category...)
Do you make money with the basics written in John Murphys book?

I have a PhD in Physics, High Energy Theory, from UVA. My dissertation included the dispersion behavior of quarks. I have never seen, touched, tasted, heard or smelled one of those little things, nor has anyone else. But, everybody (at least, most people) in the hard sciences arena believe that they are there. And they hand out degrees to their disciples every day.
Today it is even more important not to believe everything that you see, touch, taste, hear or smell.

On the other hand, I have also been meditating for over 30 years. I know from direct experience that extraordinary phenomena do happen during (or, if you will, because of) meditation. Everybody (at least most people) in the soft sciences arena, agree that these things are a reality. As a minimum, the meditating subject believes the experiences are there, but since we are talking about the subjective realm, that's good enough.

Will there ever be a reconciliation of the two sides? Will we be able to "prove" in a hard sciences way, that meditative experiences do happen? Yes, I think so. For example, by monitoring the brain functions of experienced medidators, one sees much higher level of coherence, etc etc. There's a lot of ground breaking work that is being done in this field.
...as you can see from the link in Ana Maria's original post.

The opposite (proving a hard fact in a soft way) can easily be demonstrated: hypnotize a bunch of physicists and they'll see all sorts of new elementary particles coming out of each other's ears.

:confused: In this case I would suggest a reduction of drug abuse.


Isn't this why some claimed that they had "proof" of cold fusion in the lab a few years ago? Hypnosis, paranoid group-think, extreme (blinding) desire to get the Nobel prize, what's the difference?

The "proof" was falsified. Where's the problem? People showing off or faking results or bend their perception of reality so that it fits into their believes happens every day.

Do you want proof? Try it and let us know if a good form of meditation helps your trading as it does mine.

How about a survey that compares use of meditation with the track record of a few hundred traders. If there's a correlation we can talk about proof.

In the meantime, let me say this: it will be much harder to catch a good trade by going against the trend, off Fib extensions - I promise you that! And yet, some people are still attempting to trade this way :)

Why do you want to prejudge a trading system by its setup?
 
Quote from Shrewd Dude:


all that stuff is bs

Bending spoons isn't bs. I did that. But I prefer spoons which keep their shape when I use them to eat ice cream.

It's the same with levitation: As long as you don't expect it to last much longer than a second almost everyone can do that.
 
heavy metal. - :eek:

Listening to Puccini, Mayerbeer, Giordano, Ponchielli. The tenor arias are wonderfully relaxing. Not exactly meditation, but very calming.

La Gioconda is one of my favourites...:)

Natalie
 
Quote from Yannis:



Wally,

Although I agree with you in principle, I have to admit to some hesitation to accepting this statement at face value unchallenged.

As you may know, there's a power struggle between the "hard sciences" like chemistry, physics, etc, and the "soft sciences" like psychology, sociology, etc, as to what constitutes "scientific proof."

The physicists etc favor what they call "objective proof," although no proof can be totally objective because human beings ultimately have to evaluate the data the lead us to believe that the proof was objective (witness the ongoing disagreements between the proponents of quantum mechanics and those of special relativity, not to mention the theory of general relativity which is treated as being true although there has been no real proof at all, just elegant mathematics.)

On the other hand, a psychologist is perfectly content in getting to a "inter-subjective proof" where may subjects agree that a certain subjective phenomemon works. For example, what is the proof that humans dream? That love is (one of) the strongest motivation(s) we can have? Everything that Freud, Young, et al wrote and practiced? These human experiences are accepted solely on the basis of inter-subjective agreement: many people agree that these things happen to them.

(...frankly, imo, the relevance of technical analysis to successful trading falls in the same category...)

I have a PhD in Physics, High Energy Theory, from UVA. My dissertation included the dispersion behavior of quarks. I have never seen, touched, tasted, heard or smelled one of those little things, nor has anyone else. But, everybody (at least, most people) in the hard sciences arena believe that they are there. And they hand out degrees to their disciples every day.

On the other hand, I have also been meditating for over 30 years. I know from direct experience that extraordinary phenomena do happen during (or, if you will, because of) meditation. Everybody (at least most people) in the soft sciences arena, agree that these things are a reality. As a minimum, the meditating subject believes the experiences are there, but since we are talking about the subjective realm, that's good enough.

Will there ever be a reconciliation of the two sides? Will we be able to "prove" in a hard sciences way, that meditative experiences do happen? Yes, I think so. For example, by monitoring the brain functions of experienced medidators, one sees much higher level of coherence, etc etc. There's a lot of ground breaking work that is being done in this field.

The opposite (proving a hard fact in a soft way) can easily be demonstrated: hypnotize a bunch of physicists and they'll see all sorts of new elementary particles coming out of each other's ears. Isn't this why some claimed that they had "proof" of cold fusion in the lab a few years ago? Hypnosis, paranoid group-think, extreme (blinding) desire to get the Nobel prize, what's the difference?

Do you want proof? Try it and let us know if a good form of meditation helps your trading as it does mine.

In the meantime, let me say this: it will be much harder to catch a good trade by going against the trend, off Fib extensions - I promise you that! And yet, some people are still attempting to trade this way :)

Well, with all due respect, but you are missing the point in what I have said. Yes, quarks have never been observed and the theory explains why. Can the theory of levitation, if such exists at all, explain why the levitation has never been observed? Physics is a sound discipline that is subject to and, what's even more, welcomes falsification. If quarks are really a bunk we will know this sooner or later. They will be replaced by a better model. Quarks are really a model. Nothing else, that's not reality. They may NOT exist.

We do not know the reality, we only try to describe and model it. On the other hand the believers in levitation would tell you that even if someone can do this they would never demonstrate it to the rest of the world. Now, that's the world of difference. In physics things sooner or later can be subjected to falsification and revision and this process continues. We get a better and better picture of the world around us. We may never get a complete picture, but at least we are not fooling ourselves because we are open to falsification.

As far as meditation is concerned, I have never said that meditation is useless (in fact I have said that it is useful), all I am saying is that expecting that you start levitating after meditating is a bunk and if you think I am wrong then perhaps you can provide some evidence to the contrary.

Subjectivity is not something that physics deals with. The hard sciences deal with things that are open to falsification via repeatable experiments. That's a very narrow field of all human experience, but very successful. Sometimes it's better to do less but well than to do a lot but only so so. You can have your personal pet theories but if they fail experimental tests they do not count.

That meditative experiences cannot be proven by physics does not mean that they do not exist. They may but they cannot be treated by physics because physics simply does not deal with such phenomena, perhaps yet, but levitating is a simple physical process and as such it can either be verified or else it makes more sense to assume that it just does not exist.

BTW, trading off of Fib retracements makes sense if you do this in the main trend direction and not otherwise. I don't know why you would like to do this in the opposite direction. It's possible, but harder.

As far as general relativity is concerned, it has been proved very well by many experiments. There are no experiments that would falsify it. There is more to it than some elegant mathematics. It's a well tested theory and it has been tested for over 80 years by now. It can explain things that Newton's gravity theory cannot. It can be replaced by a better theory in future but the new theory will have to be able to explain all general relativity can and more.
 
Quote from DT-waw:

I think levitation, ability to bend spoons, attract metal objects to the body can be all connected phenomenas. Some form of magnetic or electromagnetic power, perhaps. Yannis, please tell us something more on this subject.
DT,

I am very interested in meditation as a means to relax, shed stress, and improve my peace of mind, cognitive skills, health and relationships with myself and others. Levitation and other similar phenomena have been described in old texts such as Patanjali's 2nd century treatise on siddhis, but have not really been explained sufficiently in lay terms for people like us. I am aware of the fact that a couple of meditation groups are trying to shed some scientific light on these things and take them away from the realm of tricksters and magicians. However, imo, much more needs to be done in this field before we can say what exactly is there.
 
Quote from Lohnsklave:


It's the same with levitation: As long as you don't expect it to last much longer than a second almost everyone can do that.

Sure, everyone can jump high enough and claim that he levitated. But try doing it without jumping. It's much harder, to the point that you can do this only 'in private'.
 
Quote from Lohnsklave:



Is there "hard science" and "soft science"? Karl Popper said if a theory can't be falsified it isn't science (roughly spoken). The only proof is a failed falsification.

... ... ...

Why do you want to prejudge a trading system by its setup?

Lohnsklave,

Thanks for your detailed response. I don't really think we disagree too much on this. Peace! :)
 
Quote from Yannis:


Levitation and other similar phenomena have been described in old texts such as Patanjali's 2nd century treatise on siddhis, but have not really been explained sufficiently in lay terms for people like us.

Sure, walking on water has also been described in texts from approximately the same time. Same with turning water into wine. Well, to me treatises like that are good enough to start a new religion, but they fail miserably short as a proof of levitation.
 
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