McCain:Stop this euphoria, I vow to kill healthcare bill.

[FanOfFridays]

Quote from Yannis:
Not sure you're correct there. I'm against war, any war, but, the fact is that those two miserable countries now have a chance at democracy and a better life. From most Americans' perspective, Bush was right; the effort, blood and treasure spent was worth it; and, perhaps as the greatest compliment, Obama is continuing his policies over there.

Since you've said you're against any war, I'll disregard the disclaimer at the end and assume that you're against the Iraq war. Right?

Most Americans believe the Iraq war was worth it? You'd have to show me objective stats (not the garbage from absurdly partisan websites on here) which support that contention. I would be surprised if this were the case.

Obama ended America's involvement in Iraq, didn't he?

With regard to the idea that Afghanistan 'now has a chance at Democracy', since you responded politely, I'll try to remain polite as well. The idea that Afghanistan is anywhere near democracy is laughable. The country has been, is now and will be ruled by a feudal organization of warlords. Afghanistan cannot be molded into a democracy at the point of a gun. When the Americans leave, things will slowly settle back into what for now is the natural order. Modern democracy in the Western mold must be built upon the foundations of industrialization. Countries like Afghanistan cannot be democratized in 5 years, at the point of a gun. Power does not flow that way over there. Anyone who has spent any time there knows this intuitively.

You can't use 100 Apache helicopters to pick up a giant template marked 'Western democracy', fly it over to Iraq or Afghanistan, and drop it on top of the country. It won't work. It hasn't worked. It's all well and good to say 'it might', but that buys nothing on the ground in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Let's be honest. America's interest in these countries is strategic. I understand that, but let's be honest about it, and not characterize it as some sort of noble attempt to spread the good democratic word.

 

[kut2k2]

Quote from traderNik:

I don't know if you're one of the extremists here (your name doesn't come to mind when I think of the worst of them, and the fact that they're undereducated is obvious to anyone who reads their posts). If you have a graduate degree, you're one of a very few on the extreme right who do. I have but a lowly M.A.
No, you misunderstand me, and you know nothing about me if you believe that I consider the member (I use that term euphemistically) whose name I cannot mention capable of kicking anyone's ass in debate. I have as much contempt for the extremist leftists as I do for the extremist rightists here. You're getting your asses handed to you politically, and by the American people.
Got what done? It's telling that you use the phrase 'got it done' paranthetically. Perhaps that college education wasn't totally wasted. Even you can't bring yourself to use it without a qualifier. What he got done in Iraq wasn't worth the lives of those brave soliders, the limbs and futures of so many more, the lives of the innocent passers-by, and a trillion dollars. What he got the U.S. (and Canada) into in Afghanistan is even more pointless. Just ask the Russians.

One properly trained and funded special ops team could have (and should have) taken Saddam out for slightly less money and collateral costs.
Sorry, but it's that kind of hysterical reaction that characterizes the far right, and if you're as educated as you say, it's beneath you. Obama = Marx? That's just a stupid analogy. Sure, I agree that Obama is left of George Bush, but 'socialist redistribution of wealth'? I mean, come on. That's as bad as anything you accuse the leftist radicals of.

You're cheering for the U.S.? All of us who used to believe that America was the greatest country on earth are cheering with you. However, the problems that have bogged you down aren't solely attributable to a political party. In fact, the type of blind partisanship and knee-jerk generalization that you seem to engaging in is partly to blame for your current problems. Politics in your country is officially dead, replaced by partisan posturing and the quest for power.

Know what's truly ironic? What brought the 'great experiment' of communism down? Human nature. Those in power in Russia acted like humans and let greed and avarice take over, enriching themselves beyond imagination while the country starved.

What happened in America recently? The same damn thing. Capitalism without controls led those who saw inside the game to realize that they could make billions of dollars securitizing all that crap debt, and they did it. Human nature.

Free markets are the only viable system, and capitalism is the only viable form of economic organization. Capitalism with controls makes sense to me. What about you? Do the Chinese (those Commie bastards) keep you awake at night?

Don't let that guy intimidate you. Trust me on this: the average PhD in Engineering knows no more about politics than the average high school grad. Nobody goes to E school to minor in polisci.

All this "Obama = socialism" crap is the mark of a third-rate mentality; I don't care how many letters the shit-talker can write behind his name.

Single-payer wasn't even on the table, all you whiny-ass reichtard bastards!

 

[Yannis]

Quote from traderNik:

Since you've said you're against any war, I'll disregard the disclaimer at the end and assume that you're against the Iraq war. Right?

Most Americans believe the Iraq war was worth it? You'd have to show me objective stats (not the garbage from absurdly partisan websites on here) which support that contention. I would be surprised if this were the case.

Obama ended America's involvement in Iraq, didn't he?

With regard to the idea that Afghanistan 'now has a chance at Democracy', since you responded politely, I'll try to remain polite as well. The idea that Afghanistan is anywhere near democracy is laughable. The country has been, is now and will be ruled by a feudal organization of warlords. Afghanistan is not capable of being molded into a democracy at the point of a gun. When the Americans leave, things will slowly settle back into what for now is the natural order. Modern democracy in the Western mold must be built upon the foundations of industrialization. Countries like Afghanistan cannot be democratized in 5 years, at the point of a gun. Power does not flow that way over there. Anyone who has spent any time over there knows this intuitively.

You can't use 100 Apache helicopters to pick up a giant template marked 'Western democracy', fly it over to Iraq or Afghanistan, and drop it on top of the country. It won't work. It hasn't worked. It's all well and good to say 'it might', but that buys nothing on the ground in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Let's be honest, America's interest in these countries is strategic. I understand that, but let's be honest about it, and not characterize it as some sort of noble attempt to spread the good democratic word.

I'm against war, period, let's leave it at that. When you have this belief, then you do lots of things beforehand so that war doesn't become an issue, rather than let things boil over and then cry foul. If people come after me or my family, then I'll sure fight, but I don't want that and so I live accordingly.

During the time after 9/11, Americans were scared/angry out of their minds and struck back at two key centers of this terrorist ideology, Afghanistan and Iraq. Our allies were with us in the former but half of them balked at the latter because Saddam was bribing them left and right (eg, Russians, French, Chinese). Bush was correctly representing the average American view when he gave the "Axis of Evil" speech. In 2002-2004, American support for those two wars was running north of 70% according to the polls (many of them), and that's why most politicians (including Hillary, Biden et al) supported him. Keeping his promise, Bush also defined and started the execution of the timetable of American withdrawal from Iraq that Obama is merely following now - we are still there as we speak but are gradually letting the Iraqis take over, which is a good thing. Afghanistan is less fortunate and Obama has increased our invovement in that country via NATO, same thing that Bush would have done.

Yes, American interest there is strategic, but it was the same with Japan and Germany after WWII, and that turned out well. Oil vs industrial capability, what's the difference - you want both. In other words, we want the Middle East to go towards democracy so that the flow of oil be uninterrupted and terrorism minimized... surpsise, surprise. What's more, deep in American culture there's a veritable desire that the world be free. Is it because we love everybody or because we want to maximize trade with them? Don't know and don't care, it's a good thing.

How quickly can Afghanistan and Iraq develop democtratic institutions? I'm not sure, but I've worked with Iraqis and Afghanis in this country and they are the same with me and my family, they are not stupid or primitive despite what some are saying. Very smart and hardworking people, love their families too. They now have a chance to a better life over there, and they'd better grab it, or else... what can I say? People surprise you, it happens all the time. These two nations now have the opportunity to do exactly that. It's worth a chance and I hope they deliver.

 

[AAAintheBeltway]

I think the arguments that obamacare won't work, etc are fine and of course accurate, but they miss the point. The aim was never to fix health care. Rather, the first aim was to get control of health care and lay the foundation for a later move to a full socialist system. With control of the entire health care financing system, democrats know they will be in the catbird seat when it comes to extorting funds from big pharma, hospitals, managed care providers et al. They will be able to push their lackeys on these companies as execs, much as they did with FNM/FRE and probably to the same end result.

A secondary aim was to convert a majority of the country to being dependents of the federal government, much like welfare recipients. Step one is to convince voters that it is ok to use the raw power of government to force other voters to subsidize you. At one point in this country, that would have been a radical concept, and most people would have refused on principle. Now, not only do they not see it as shameful, they regard it as highly desirable and castigate people who don't want to subsidize others as greedy.

After voters accept the rob peter to pay paul principle, the next step is to legalize the 40 million or so illegals. After all, they need health care too and it is the moral thing to do to force the taxpayers of this country to subsidize people who came here illegally.

 

[Yannis]

Quote from AAAintheBeltway:

I think the arguments that obamacare won't work, etc are fine and of course accurate, but they miss the point. The aim was never to fix health care. Rather, the first aim was to get control of health care and lay the foundation for a later move to a full socialist system. With control of the entire health care financing system, democrats know they will be in the catbird seat when it comes to extorting funds from big pharma, hospitals, managed care providers et al. They will be able to push their lackeys on these companies as execs, much as they did with FNM/FRE and probably to the same end result.

A secondary aim was to convert a majority of the country to being dependents of the federal government, much like welfare recipients. Step one is to convince voters that it is ok to use the raw power of government to force other voters to subsidize you. At one point in this country, that would have been a radical concept, and most people would have refused on principle. Now, not only do they not see it as shameful, they regard it as highly desirable and castigate people who don't want to subsidize others as greedy.

After voters accept the rob peter to pay paul principle, the next step is to legalize the 40 million or so illegals. After all, they need health care too and it is the moral thing to do to force the taxpayers of this country to subsidize people who came here illegally.

Agree. The scary thing is that there's no limit to how many poor people they can import and convince to keep voting for them (Dems) in exchange for "free" services that come from "the rich"... Sure looks like a giant power-grab move on the liberals side, and they have to be stopped.

 

[FanOfFridays]

Quote from Yannis:
During the time after 9/11, Americans were scared/angry out of their minds and struck back at two key centers of this terrorist ideology, Afghanistan and Iraq.

I'm past the point where I spend much time arguing these things with ET members, mostly because the majority of them won't understand what I'm saying. I will just tell you this. If you believe Afghanistan and Iraq are 'two key centres of terrorist ideology', you are mistaken, especially about Iraq. Like I said, I'm not going to explain why or how the current Islamic fundamentalist movement gained momentum. If you're interested, you could read "The Looming Tower: Al-Qaeda and the Road to 9/11" by Lawrence Wright. This is by no means an exhaustive history but it will give you some idea of how things got started.

 

[Dr. Zhivodka]

Is it odd to anyone else that a claimed Phd from UVA in Physics quotes Dick Morris almost all the time? I find that very odd?

I mean really shouldn't he be thinking about Schrodinger's Cat or some shit?

Quote from traderNik:

I'm past the point where I spend much time arguing these things with ET members, mostly because the majority of them won't understand what I'm saying. I will just tell you this. If you believe Afghanistan and Iraq are 'two key centres of terrorist ideology', you are mistaken, especially about Iraq. Like I said, I'm not going to explain why or how the current Islamic fundamentalist movement gained momentum. If you're interested, you could read "The Looming Tower: Al-Qaeda and the Road to 9/11" by Lawrence Wright. This is by no means an exhaustive history but it will give you some idea of how things got started.