Materialists

Damir:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm

>according to this, there is disagreement on both the
>defining and counting of c'ians

Yes, they acknowledge the disagreement...they say the disagreement centers around whether christianity is DECLINING or STATIC. Neither position ends up with a "explosive growth" interpretation.

JB

PS Damir, I'm happy to discuss with you any question you wish.
 
The frustration comes from Shoes insistence to NOT support
his assertion, and to consistently DODGE my questions.

Its very difficult to stay cool when someone refuses to
answer any of your questions, and continues to argue
things we have no interest in, instead of the real issue.

I already explained why absolute numbers are worthless.

If we follow the current trends, islam will surpass christianity
as the #1 religion in the world and yet, we will still have
Shoe claiming explosive growth because the christian
population still went UP in the same time period. Absurd.

We have SEVERAL sources that all show Christianity is
in a downtrend in percentage terms.

Shoe has not supplied A SINGLE COUNTER SOURCE


So far - he has effectively refused to debate issue #1.


peace

axeman



Quote from damir00:

hey guys - TIME OUT!

for a brief moment there we were (almost) all being civil with each other, can we take a step back and try this "growth" thing again?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm

according to this, there is disagreement on both the defining and counting of c'ians, so i doubt we're going to solve anything here. i think we can all agree there are tons and tons of c'ians in the world, and growth rate is probably not huge in terms of percentages but probably is large in terms of absolute numbers.

can we get back to more interesting questions?
More...
 
When your debate opponent gets a negative connotation from the words "religious tolerance" you just know it isn't gonna end well.

JB

PS, I'm on a plane, I really am (amazing that wireless broadband even reaches into the plane at the gate)


Quote from ShoeshineBoy:

You're right. Technically, I don't they're liberal. But what would you think from a web site name "religioustolerance.com"? Let's face it: that's a typical buzzword for liberal thinking.

But I rescind my remark as I don't know for sure. That was said in the heat of battle...
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Guys,

I'll post my logic one more time:

"As I mentioned already I extrapolate present growth rate numbers from the following logic:

If Christian global growth is projected to be 2% in 2005, 2006, 2007 and onward, we can assume that it was close to 2% in 2004, 2003, 2002, 2001 and so on."

Again, if you don't like my logic, fine.

If you don't accept the idea that a growth rate in 2005 indicates a similar growth in 2004 - fine.

And if you don't think 2% is "explosive growth" - fine.

But don't say I didn't post it. This is the second time now.
 
Quote from Turok:

When your debate opponent gets a negative connotation from the words "religious tolerance" you just know it isn't gonna end well.

JB

PS, I'm on a plane, I really am (amazing that wireless broadband even reaches into the plane at the gate)
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You're attacking me from 30,000 feet! That ain't fair...
 
>Guys,

>I'll post my logic one more time:

And I'll ask my question one more time.

Shoe,

Why would you need to assert current growth ONLY by producing future projections?

Why don't you just come up with CURRENT numbers to support CURRENT growth. This seems like a very logical and reasonable thing to do.

JB
 
If Christian global growth is projected to be 2% in 2005, 2006, 2007 and onward, we can assume that it was close to 2% in 2004, 2003, 2002, 2001 and so on."


No we cant!! Dude... your math/logic skills are SORELY lacking.

This is simply FALSE.


The PAST already occured.
Future growth projections cannot alter it.
You cannot extrapolate in REVERSE based on future projections!


Geeezzuzzz.... where do you get this stuff???????


axeman <--- banging head against monitor.



peace

axeman




Quote from ShoeshineBoy:

Guys,

I'll post my logic one more time:

"As I mentioned already I extrapolate present growth rate numbers from the following logic:

If Christian global growth is projected to be 2% in 2005, 2006, 2007 and onward, we can assume that it was close to 2% in 2004, 2003, 2002, 2001 and so on."

Again, if you don't like my logic, fine.

If you don't accept the idea that a growth rate in 2005 indicates a similar growth in 2004 - fine.

And if you don't think 2% is "explosive growth" - fine.

But don't say I didn't post it. This is the second time now.
More...
 
Quote from Turok:

Shoe Myth #2: Evangelicals agree on core doctrine so therefore this talk of christian/biblical core conflict is really overblown.

Shoe:
>Again, I think you see remarkable consistency around
>evangelicals, which represent 1000's and 1000's of
>different churches and denominations worldwide.

>Evangelical Christianity is REMARKABLY consistent
>on core doctrines.

>Evangelicals only disagree on peripheral issues such
>as what we've talked about on this thread such as "how
>hot is hell" and "how do you baptize somebody?" and
>"what kind of music do we want in church?", etc.

Ok, for the sake of the conversation I will stipulate (see Shoe, it's not painful) that *all* evangelicals agree on *all* core doctrine.

First some numbers from http://www.adherents.com/adh_branches.html

World Chrisitian population: ~2,000,000,000
World Protestant Population: ~ 400,000,000

So, ~20% of the Christian community is Protestant (remember this #)

Ok, from http://www.religioustolerance.org/evan_defn.htm (again, footnotes available on web site)


Barna Research Ltd.: This is the main Evangelical polling organization in the U.S. They define an "evangelical" very precisely, as a person who can affirm all of the following:

They have been "born again;" i.e. they have been saved by having trusted Jesus as Lord and Savior.

"...their faith is very important in their life today."

They feel that they have a personal responsibility to share their religious beliefs with non-Christians.

They believe that Satan exists as a living entity.

They believe that salvation is possible only through grace, not by personal effort or works.

They believe that Jesus Christ lived a sinless life on earth.

They believe that God: Exists, Created the universe, Is omniscient, omnipotent and perfect, and Rules the universe today.

They estimate that 11% of all Protestants meet their definition.


Catch that last number shoe? So, ~11% of all Protestants are Evangelicals (by the Evangelicals OWN numbers) This would mean (.20 x .11) that ~2% of Christians are Evangelicals.

WOW!!!!!!!!! 2% OF THE CHRISTIAN POPULATION AGREES WITH EACH OTHER REGARDING CORE DOCTRINE.

Well no offense, but woopie freakin' do.

Next, we move on to the REST of the christian world where large segments CAN'T agree on core doctrine such as the path to salvation (and how much more core can you get then that?)

Later.

JB

PS, notice Shoe that none of the referenced web sites are "materialist" sites. I'm keeping things as fair as I can.
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All right, I'm with Damir - let's go onto Shoe Myth #2.

First of all, I'm probably going to agree with you to a certain extent on #2.

It is so difficult to talk to you guys though cuzz if I take both sides of an issue you always take advantage!

But I digress. Anyway, here is my new thesis:

"If I meet a Christian who 1) believes that the Bible is divinely inspired (or whatever wording you want to use) and 2) has read the Bible extensively for him or herself and 3) does not consider extrabiblical sources as scripture, then I have a 95% chance of agreeing with them on the core doctrines of Christianity."

Now that's my new thesis, because I agree with you that I would be fundamentally different from a syncretistic third world catholic that is worshipping Mary or from a Mormon who has additional three books he considers scriptural or a very liberal christian that believes the Bible is a nice compendium of stories from days of old...

This however is a MUCH larger % than 2% of the Christian population that you suggested for many reasons...

So I am making a partial concession...
 
Quote from axeman:

If Christian global growth is projected to be 2% in 2005, 2006, 2007 and onward, we can assume that it was close to 2% in 2004, 2003, 2002, 2001 and so on."


No we cant!! Dude... your math/logic skills are SORELY lacking.

axeman <--- banging head against monitor.
More...

No, "dude", it's your math skills that are lacking. The slope of a continuous function cannot change instantaneously along a curved path. So keep banging your head on the monitor until you see what I'm saying...
 
And Axe, ask yourself a question: if in the last few decades Christianity has grown in the Southern Hemisphere by 200, 300, 400 million believers or whatever it is - where has the decline in Christianity occurred that would compensate?

If you can show me that 300 million have left the church in Western Europe, then I'll concede the point that there was brief downturn from 1970 to 2000 in Christianity's otherwise explosive growth since the turn of the century due to a loss of membership in Western Europe...
 
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