Materialists

Quote from Turok:

OK, I'M GOING TO YELL FOR AN ENTIRE PARAGRAPH TO SEE IF I CAN GET THIS THROUGH TO YOU. I---HAVE---NOT---ARGUED---ONE---SINGLE---TIME---FOR---"MILTONION HELL". Please stop representing that I do because I DO NOT AND HAVE NOT ARGUED SUCH!
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Imo you're quibbling over a minor point. You're arguing for some period of time, regardless of whether it's an eternity or not, that the non-believer is thrown into a torturous fire. If you'll read my post, that's why I carefully wrote short or long term. You're just quibbling over semantics.

I understand that your position is not arguing for an eternal hell. So let's please go onto the core of what we're discussing...
 
Quote from Turok:


>Again, there is nothing in these last four verses that
>imply directly or otherwise that a person is tortured
>short term or long term in a fire.

Yeah, sure Shoe. Let's cast you alive into a large fire and then ask you ONE MOMENT IN if you consider the flames to be torture. Where do you possibly come off presenting that being burned alive is not torturous.

JB
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I don't know how many more times that I or others can point out that "hell" in all these contexts can easily be simple consumption. There is nothing in your verses on p. 62 to imply that the person torturously "burned alive".
 
Quote from Turok:

>Hell in this case would be a 'punishment' in the
>sense that eternal life would be preferable to
>eternal death and it would also be a fulfillment
>of the materialist's expecations;

You are right Spec ONLY if Shoe believes that hell is NOT a place of fiery/torturous punishment. If it is NOT a painful place then the position that you state is reasonable and I have no quarel with it.

The word of god however is VERY clear regarding the nature of hell...it is a fiery place of pain and anguish.

JB
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I disagree. The Bible is very clear that they are simply meant for simple destruction. Here are more verses:


"For the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction." (Job 31:3)

"All the wicked God will destroy". (Ps 145:20)

"Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave those who have sinned." (Job 24:19)

Again, what could be more clear than the above verse? The last verse clearly states (and the grave = "Sheol" by the way) that non-believers are simply consumed like melting snow waters, i.e. they are gone forever.

I submit that your belief in a torturous hell is colored by your cultural and religious upbringing...There is simply no strong case that non-believers are tortured in a fire short term or long term.
 
Quote from ShoeshineBoy:

I disagree. The Bible is very clear that they are simply meant for simple destruction. Here are more verses:


"For the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction." (Job 31:3)

"All the wicked God will destroy". (Ps 145:20)

"Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave those who have sinned." (Job 24:19)

Again, what could be more clear than the above verse? The last verse clearly states (and the grave = "Sheol" by the way) that non-believers are simply consumed like melting snow waters, i.e. they are gone forever.

I submit that your belief in a torturous hell is colored by your cultural and religious upbringing...There is simply no strong case that non-believers are tortured in a fire short term or long term.
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Hang on....1....2....and yep, there it is, 3!

Three passages, Turok. We've got grounds for 'major doctrine' here!
 
SHOE - YOU ARE BEING DISHONEST AS ALL HELL :D

Here is YOUR ORIGINAL argument:

Shoe quotes on biblical hell:
SHOE:There is a deliberate silence...
Think about it: we have several passages describing
heaven, i.e. streets of gold, etc. Where is a similar
description of hell?


Turok clearly supplied FIVE passages which reference HELL,
even Jesus references it. Therefore, the bible IS NOT silent on hell.
This is very clear.

And what do you do??? Set up STRAWMAN after STRAWMAN
attacking all kinds of arguments Turok *did not make*,
while dodging the fact that he nailed you to the cross
ON THE ARGUMENT HE IS MAKING

Concede already, because this is getting quite ridiculous.

Your looking like a blatant liar who cant admit even the obvious.


So I re-ask the question, after Turoks research:

Is the bible SILENT on hell? Yes or No. Answer THIS question,
not some other question you fabricate to dodge the question!


peace

axeman
 
Quote from axeman:

SHOE - YOU ARE BEING DISHONEST AS ALL HELL :D

Here is YOUR ORIGINAL argument:

Shoe quotes on biblical hell:
SHOE:There is a deliberate silence...
Think about it: we have several passages describing
heaven, i.e. streets of gold, etc. Where is a similar
description of hell?


Turok clearly supplied FIVE passages which reference HELL,
even Jesus references it. Therefore, the bible IS NOT silent on hell.
This is very clear.
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Yes, hell and fire are tied together. If that's what you call a "description" then fine. To me that's not a description.

Contrast that with the apocryphal description of the New Jerusalem in Revelation and Ezekiel which is very detailed.

Again, you guys are quibbling on semantics.
 
So which is it...

Do you not argue with those four passages because they are "weak to my position", or because they "apply to both positions"?

You say:
>I didn't spend any time on the last four because
>they are simply so weak to your position.
>All those verses do is simply put the word "hell"
>and "fire" together in the same verse.

I say:
>Yes, and that is weak to my position that hell is a
>fiery place of punishment how exactly?

And rather than answer my question and support your original statement you change to:

>The problem is that these verses apply to both your
>position and my position and therefore are not proof
>texts for either.

So, I'll ask you again...

Those 4 passages are "simply so weak to my position that hell is a fiery place of punishment" how exactly?

JB
 
I DID NOT say a damn thing about hell and fire being tied together.

Seriously... do you have reading problems?
Because you seem to consistently read things which ARE NOT THERE.


ONE MORE TIME SHOE. The ***ISSUE IS**** whether or not
the bible is ****SILENT**** on hell.

The ***ISSUE IS**** whether or not the bible is ****SILENT**** on hell.
The ***ISSUE IS**** whether or not the bible is ****SILENT**** on hell.
The ***ISSUE IS**** whether or not the bible is ****SILENT**** on hell.

NOT whether or not hell and fire are tied together OK?!??!


GOT THAT? SURE?? OK good.

Now you have TWO choices in answers.

Choice 1) TRUE
Choice 2) FALSE

And the question again:


Is the bible SILENT on hell? True or False.


Now let me tell you what I EXPECT from you.

I EXPECT you will respond with a ONE word answer, either
TRUE or FALSE.

If you go raving on about something that has NOTHING to do
with answering TRUE or FALSE again they you will have proven
BEYOND ANY DOUBT that you have absolutely NO INTEREST
in having a real discussion at all, and are simply being
100% intellectually dishonest.

You will further give me REAL REASON to believe theists are
generally incapable of reading comprehension, are completely
dishonest, have incredibly low IQs or some combination of the
above.

Come one SHOE, you can do it. Respond with TRUE or FALSE.
Im cheering you on.


peace

axeman



Quote from ShoeshineBoy:

Yes, hell and fire are tied together. If that's what you call a "description" then fine. To me that's not a description.

Contrast that with the apocryphal description of the New Jerusalem in Revelation and Ezekiel which is very detailed.

Again, you guys are quibbling on semantics.
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It's amusing that you mock me in this situation when the "there must be three for major doctrine" is not my position, but Shoes.

JB

Quote from spect8or:

Hang on....1....2....and yep, there it is, 3!

Three passages, Turok. We've got grounds for 'major doctrine' here!
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