Materialists

[ShoeshineBoy]

Quote from damir00:

he's got a point, shoe.

It's true that in word Axe is agnostic. The #2 definition is

"One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism. "

All I'm saying is that almost anyone who reads Axe's posts (w/o knowing where he says he stands) would assume he was an atheist. Axe never comes across as "one who is skeptical".

In spite of what he says, he has no skepticism. Axe is absolutely convinced that there is no God and that any opposing viewpoint is foolish. This comes across in every post he writes and that's not imo a true agnostic. I've know a lot of agnostics and Axe just pays lip service to it so that he does not seem so extreme...

 

[ShoeshineBoy]

Quote from damir00:

because it simply doesn't matter whether Moshe and Avraham were "real" historical figures.

How do you know it doesn't matter? Again, that's a bold statement...

 

[ShoeshineBoy]

Quote from damir00:

...and without punctuation marks. you can't read it unless you already know what it says. the inferences are, i trust, obvious.

It's not quite that bad is it? I can see it causing problems. But you only have a certain # of combinatorial possibilites and these can be drastically reduced by limiting the nonsensical ones, correct?

 

[ShoeshineBoy]

Quote from axeman:



You are forcing agnosticism and disbelief to be mutually exclusive.

Agnosticism and skepticism go hand in hand. You have no skepticism. The only thing agnostic about you is that you say you're agnostic.

 

[Spiderman2]

The person in question has a huge ego and will shamelessly distort and manufacture the "truth" to gratify himself.

He will stop at nothing to "win".

The proof of this is right on another thread, you don't have to look far.

Forewarned is forearmed.

 

[damir00]

Quote from ShoeshineBoy:

How do you know it doesn't matter?

because i decide it doesn't matter. the choice on what does and doesn't matter always lies with us, individually.

 

[damir00]

Quote from ShoeshineBoy:

... limiting the nonsensical ones, correct?

there's the rub, my friend. we are talking about spiritual poetry (the hebrew texts are by and large poetry, not prose) , not mathematical treatises, and both spiritual texts and poetry follow their own logic. what you suggest is exactly what happens, of course - but since "nonsensical" is not scripturally defined and is highly dependent on the reader, it means the reader is bringing their beliefs into the scripture, not deriving them from scripture.

recognizing that reality is exactly why Judaism doesn't have scripture in the c'ian sense of the word. it's also why (hardcore) c'ianity and islam are constantly at each other's throats: neither has allegorized their faith to the point they can accept the validity of others.

 

[axeman]

Im very disappointed in you Shoe.
You have not been paying attention.

The following statement is completely false:

Axe is absolutely convinced that there is no God and that any opposing viewpoint is foolish

Im a WEAK ATHEIST, or agnostic atheist, which means
that I DO NOT assert there is NO GOD.
I do not BELIEVE that god does no exist.
I consider that an irrational position, EXCEPT in very specific
cases where specific definitions of god our internally contradictory.

If I asserted there is no god, I would call myself a STRONG ATHEIST,
which I am not.

I simply have found NO RATIONAL REASONS to believe in god
any more than there is to believe in unicorns.
This does not mean god DOESNT exist, but so far, I consider
it silly to assume such a being DOES exist based the the
lack of evidence.

You are simply confusing my skepticism for strong atheism.


Its quite EASY to convince me that there is a god.
Simply provide sufficient evidence to support this extraordinary claim.

As for the agnosticism claim. Its obvious.
I have no knowledge of god, and am therefore agnostic.
And I am an atheist because I lack god BELIEF.

Therefore, I am an agnostic atheist.

More later.......



peace

axeman

Quote from ShoeshineBoy:

It's true that in word Axe is agnostic. The #2 definition is

"One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism. "

All I'm saying is that almost anyone who reads Axe's posts (w/o knowing where he says he stands) would assume he was an atheist. Axe never comes across as "one who is skeptical".

In spite of what he says, he has no skepticism. Axe is absolutely convinced that there is no God and that any opposing viewpoint is foolish. This comes across in every post he writes and that's not imo a true agnostic. I've know a lot of agnostics and Axe just pays lip service to it so that he does not seem so extreme...

 

[ShoeshineBoy]

Quote from damir00:

because i decide it doesn't matter. the choice on what does and doesn't matter always lies with us, individually.

Gotcha.

 

[axeman]

Shoe,

Read the following.
This guys explains the differences very well.

Semantics aside.... using THESE particular definitions in the
article, tell me if you see any problem:

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Atheism vs. Agnosticism: The difference between the two

The difference between atheism and agnosticism is often the subject of much debate. Indeed, many people are confused about the difference between the two. Hopefully I’ll be able to give a clear understanding about the relationship and difference between these two words, and heighten the overall awareness of the reader.

Theism and atheism are dealing in the realm of belief. They pertain to what we do or do not believe. Agnosticism and gnosticism are dealing with knowledge, i.e., knowing or not knowing. Being aware of this seemingly obvious fact is critical to understanding the difference between atheism and agnosticism and the label you may or may not fall under.

It’s also important to be mindful that there are different types of atheists. Atheism itself is very broad; it is lack of god-belief. If you’re of the mindset that atheism is the positive belief that there are no gods, you’re wrong. Believing that there are no gods is a characteristic of some atheists, not atheism. Many atheists simply lack a belief in gods without having the belief that no gods exist. Therein lies the point of confusion between atheism and agnosticism for many.

Atheism is the absence of belief in a deity; agnosticism is the absence of knowledge, in this context the absence of knowledge whether or not one or more gods exist. Atheism and agnosticism are two different spheres of thought and should be treated as such. Theism and atheism are not two different spheres of thought; they both consider whether or not god(s) exist and how one believes in regard. When dealing with belief, a person either (i) believes there is one or more gods or (ii) does not believe there is one or more gods. With knowledge, a person either (i) knows there is one or more god or (ii) does not know whether or not there is one or more gods.
Hopefully at this point you are beginning to see where I’m heading. Because agnosticism is dealing with knowledge and not belief, therefore being a separate school of thought, it is not a third option aside from theism and atheism. A person either has or does not have a belief in one or more gods. Accordingly, a person is either a theist or an atheist. Gnosticism and agnosticism are introduced when describing the theist or atheist. A theist or an atheist is either gnostic or agnostic. That is: either the theist or atheist knows there is or isn’t a god (gnostic) or he or she simply believes there is or does not believe there is (agnostic), while admitting that he or she does not know. Let me step outside of the subject with in illustration using my well being tomorrow. I believe, though I do not know, I will not be killed tomorrow.

The gnostic theist, usually simply called a theist, not only believes there is a god, but claims to know there is a god. This knowledge is usually obtained from some perceived evidence or revelation, such as a Bible filled with prophecies that are coming true with incredible accuracy today. With such evidence, this theist can go beyond simple belief and know with certainty. An agnostic theist believes that there is at least one god while allowing the possibility that he or she is wrong, due to lack of evidence or knowledge. He or she believes there is a god, but doesn’t know for certain.

The gnostic atheist (AKA strong atheist) knows there are no gods at all. This knowledge is usually obtained due to some perceived logical incompatibility with the existence of a god and reality. An agnostic atheist (AKA weak atheist) is an atheist who maintains a lack of belief in a god--and sometimes a belief that no gods exist--while having no knowledge that gods do not exist, due to insufficient evidence or some other reason.

Summarizing: Agnosticism is not a third option to theism or atheism; it is a type of theist or atheist.


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peace

axeman