damir,
stu:
It is the religionist who demands one true God, no arguments, the Bible as a sacrosanct word of God.
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damir00:
but this is simply not true. in particular, no Jew requires that even of another Jew - much less a non-Jew. if you wish to argue Jews are not "religionists", we can have that discussion, but short of such a claim your statement is false because Judaism is a rather obvious existance proof to the contrary.
I appreciate the point you make and think I understand it. I think in fairness though I was talking in regard to the Judeo Christian religionist in the context of 'Christ and dying for sin' etc. They do and must proclaim there is but one god. However a religionist by definition, would be someone who expresses devotion to a deity and if you are saying, no Jew manifests a devotion to a deity, then indeed my statement would be false in that respect. However I do not understand that to be the case. I stand corrected if I am wrong.
stu:
If the Bible is nothing but allegorical, then it is not true
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damir00:
the conclusion does not follow. it may or may not be true. but being allegorical, it simply doesn't matter.
The conclusion I think must follow. If it is nothing but allegorical and remains nothing but allegorical then it is not true. A thing is only true in any meaningful term, when it is known of and demonstrated to be so. Until then, as you say, it doesn't matter...or one can examine it for a likelihood of it becoming true or false in a meaningful way. There are probably things in the cosmos that are true and things that are false of which nothing is known. Until they are known and demonstrated as true or false, they are not meaningfully true, not meaningfully false and therefore would not matter.
i am a (more or less) torah-observant Jew. i assume that means i qualify as a "religionist". as a member of the civiilization that wrote the bulk of what is considered scripture, i am telling you flat out you don't have to use the book.
Well fine, millions don't believe in Christ's birthday but it wouldn't or shouldn't stop them enjoying Christmas.
That was not the reason for christ's birthday though was it?
The idea of writing the Bible was not so that it should be ignored, was it?
I do not see why the hell should I use a Book full of lies and damn lies to build a life.
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i am telling you flat out you don't have to use the book. use whatever book/path you like to help you live a decent life - it doesn't matter - what you believe - how you believe it - is YOUR business.
I would be one of the first to wholeheartedly agree with you...but that is not what I understand religion is about. It is about being... NOT your business but It is the business of the God idea. It contains an implicit threat , which of course does not matter until it permeates through society as a way of separating those who believe the threat, and make it their business to tell others... they are not or cannot be decent (known also to them as believing) human beings because they do not fall for the threat and the God idea.
However to confirm, I have no reason to hold as correct the notion that those of the Jewish faith do such a thing. If all that is required, is a respect that a Jew might hold there is G_d , then I have no problem with that, and nor should I. If I am told by a Jew ,or anyone else, there is a God, then I will not have that as a given true.
all i care is that when/if we interact, you're a decent human being.
that's it.
you can't lump all "religionists" together. it's not fair, and undermines your legitimate points.
I take your point and it is well made damir, but if I may say, that's not what I am doing. I am saying religionists display devotion to the idea of
a (one) deity. Therefore there is an unjustified presupposition that there is
a deity when none has been demonstrated to be anything other than an idea. If what you are saying is , religionists do not do that, then I respectfully suggest you are wrong.
That a Jew would NOT force his idea of a deity (or religious beliefs) onto another is I think reasonable and respectful of the Jew to other Jews and to people in general. I humbly respect that standpoint.
all i care is that when/if we interact, you're a decent human being.
that's it.
I can assure you, I would only care you were the same.
