You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Market System of Operation
- Thread starter llIHeroic
- Start date
Heroic, if you wouldn't have insisted... for which I thank you... I wouldn't even have noticed the issue.
Looking at Jack's bar 17 assignement as a PP5 it looked correct to me. It is an OB. On the top row you always have a peak and the bottom row is always a through. We had a T1 before so everything looked fine. Top = P2, bottom = T2P. Therefore it is a PP5. At least that's how it looked like before.
Jack, if it is not a PP5 and you assign a T1 on the top and P2 on the bottom and as you say it is not an EE, then this means it is also not a "turn". But it is marked as b turn. To have a turn we always need to have an EE, correct?
Looking at Jack's bar 17 assignement as a PP5 it looked correct to me. It is an OB. On the top row you always have a peak and the bottom row is always a through. We had a T1 before so everything looked fine. Top = P2, bottom = T2P. Therefore it is a PP5. At least that's how it looked like before.
Jack, if it is not a PP5 and you assign a T1 on the top and P2 on the bottom and as you say it is not an EE, then this means it is also not a "turn". But it is marked as b turn. To have a turn we always need to have an EE, correct?
Quote from workwithus:
Actually i now think it's slightly more complicated then the above statement.If you apply rule #1 to the upper level then Next is a T1 which triggers the PP4.In this instance the P1 "reset" assignment would actually be on the next measurable bar.Any time you get a PP EE and /or band B thru K EE as a result of an assignment on the lower level this P1 reset is on the next measurable bar.
Do you have examples of this in logs or charts? I wasn't sure of how this works, so it will be good for us if you have learned how P1 reset works in regards to OB.
If the lower level of the OB triggers a certain PPx EE, then we know to assign P1 to the next bar, but if the top row triggers a non-failsafe EE, such as a Band B-K EE, you are saying that nothing is assigned to the bottom row and we wait until next bar to assign P1?
Quote from workwithus:
...If the bar is an OB bar with the same situation occurring on the upper level then you have to wait until the next level to reset the volume OOE's (in this case it happens on the lower level).
But what happens if the PP or band b thru K EE triggers on the lower level of an OB bar? Well then your next level is on the next measurable bar (level).Just think of "levels" instead of bars.
Okay, thank you for taking the time to clarify these two possibilities for non-failsafe EE on OB's. I was not sure if you were saying to always wait until the next measurable bar even if the EE occurred on the top row of the OB at first.
Now I understand that if it happens on the top, we assign P1 to next measurable bar, which is the bottom row on an OB. And if the EE happens on the bottom row, we use the next measurable separate bar like normal.
With this procedure, Bar 34 on [12-16] is a T1 then, because a PP3 occurred on the top row of the OB on Bar 33, the bottom row was assigned P1, and Bar 34 has lower volume than Bar 33 [P1 Repeat is False, T1 Assigned]?
Attachments
I am having a hard time reviewing the charts because these small differences end up changing all of the EEs and turns especially for the day when I log the days compared to Jack's charts.
For example, here is an instruction on fanning the rtl for a BO T1 during internal.
"smwbbe Question: After the BM REV on bar 26, it is assigned as a P1 and the direction changes from short to long. A BookMark would be placed at the bottom of bar 26 and an RTL would be drawn from bar 26 to bar 27 (P1 to T1). Bar 28 closes outside of that RTL but it wasn't designated as a BO,T1.
Jack Asnwer: Consult the facets of RTL's in channel geometry. In particular, there is a requirement that has to do with fanning. Fanning is based upon "internals""
In this snip from [12-17] for Bar 16 - Bar 18, the rtl was not fanned during a Hitch that is designated as WAIT Bar, and a BO T1 occurred on the bar of the Hitch. Is this another mis-annotation, or am I missing something here?
For example, here is an instruction on fanning the rtl for a BO T1 during internal.
"smwbbe Question: After the BM REV on bar 26, it is assigned as a P1 and the direction changes from short to long. A BookMark would be placed at the bottom of bar 26 and an RTL would be drawn from bar 26 to bar 27 (P1 to T1). Bar 28 closes outside of that RTL but it wasn't designated as a BO,T1.
Jack Asnwer: Consult the facets of RTL's in channel geometry. In particular, there is a requirement that has to do with fanning. Fanning is based upon "internals""
In this snip from [12-17] for Bar 16 - Bar 18, the rtl was not fanned during a Hitch that is designated as WAIT Bar, and a BO T1 occurred on the bar of the Hitch. Is this another mis-annotation, or am I missing something here?
Attachments
Quote from workwithus:
You didn't miss a thing (see attached post).This is the reason when reviewing the OB's i'm using jack's most recent volume OOE reset (going back to start of OOE by assigning a P1) before the OB bar and seeing how my volume tests compare to jack's on the bars leading up to the OB and then on the OB (to see how i compare on upper/lower level applications) plus the bar after the OB (how i compare on this bar).By assuming jack's reset bar is correct (even though it may not be correct) at least i can try to compare my results to his assuming the same volume OOE conditions.I have found enough mis-annotations (i think alot of it is using mental degapping which puts you at a disadvantage right at the beginning of this complicated process) on jack's charts that in order to advance my understanding of the volume element testing procedure rules and their application i try to find similar situations and consistent application by jack on them.
workwithus,
I forgot to thank you for explaining the acceleration test for PP1 to me. That was very helpful.
Also, since there seems to be some mis-annotations on Jack's Chart and in order to test our Test Results against it, we have to manually match his OOE beginnings, I thought of another idea.
Can you post all of your EE's and their sentiments for [12-17]? I logged the day using the chart you posted earlier and will post mine below. Perhaps between the two of us we can iron out all the differences we have and get the day perfectly annotated for practice. If anyone else has learned enough to fill out the full logs they are welcome to join as well.
Here are all of mine. We can go to the first difference [assuming we have a few] and zoom in to the Price Cases and Volume Elements in order to reconcile it, then whoever had to change their EE can re-log the day with the correction, and we can repeat until we get stuck or complete the day successfully.
Open: Long
Bar 1 Top Row: BM REV - Short
Bar 1 Bottom: PP4 - Long
Bar 2: BM REV - Short
Bar 4: BO T1 - Long
Bar 10: Ab - Short
Bar 15: Ab - Long
Bar 16: BM REV - Short
Bar 20: BO T1 - Long
Bar 24: BM REV - Short
Bar 26: BO T1 - Long
Bar 32: BO T1 - Short
Bar 33 Top: BM REV - Long
Bar 33 Bottom: PP4 - Short
Bar 38: PP6 - Long
Bar 42: Ag - Short
Bar 47: BO T1 - Long
Bar 51: BM REV - Short
Bar 55: PP1 - Long
Bar 61: Bc - Short
Bar 67: Bc - Long
Bar 70: PP3 - Short
Bar 76: Ag - Long
Bar 78 Top: BM REV - Short
Bar 78 Bottom: PP4 - Long
Bar 79: BM REV - Short
Attachments
Quote from workwithus:
Jack should the PP volume band EE sheet be updated to include the PP4a (P1/P2) OB bar? "On bar 65 we see an OB that yields a PP4a." Appears it's also listed as the event on the log jack posted for 6-5-13 on bar 65. http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=269635&perpage=6&pagenumber=11 http://screencast.com/t/XIVoihdNpI4T
It got updated 2.5 months ago.
On the PP's sheet I have clarified a turn called OB PP4a (the two parts are P1 followed by P2 (after a t1 and P2 have occurred)
Quote from xioxxio:
Good luck!
I asked Jack a question countless posts ago. This thread has been hijacked. There is not enough hours in a day for Jack to read all these posts.
Perhaps Jack has been delayed by other circumstances. He is still going to post a commentary of the FOMC bars on the 18th I believe.
I think we have all of the pieces required in order to gain complete facility of the system if we work together, which is why I suggested doing a run through [12-17].
If you guys could post your EEs for the day I would appreciate it, we can compare and discover any errors we might be making.