Marc Rich (1935-2013) Dead

[Maverick74]

Quote from marketsurfer:

I disagree. You threw a red herring into the conversation by attempting to equate violating a law of the state ( don't do business with our enemy) with violating laws against clearly the most extreme morally reprehensible actions. You don't see the difference? surf

Surf, I'm not talking about the law. Where in my post did I ever mention the law. I'm talking about WHERE he GOT his oil FROM. I could give two shits about what he did or did not pay in taxes. This is EXACTLY why the child trafficking analogy was valid.

 

[Maverick74]

Quote from Pekelo:

I can't believe I fully agree with Surf...



No it can't. As Surf promptly noted, there is a huge difference between variables that almost everyone find repulsing to trade and ones that a state decides to be forbidden. Just because a powerful entity declares something to be banned, that doesn't mean dealing with it is against my morals, be it downloading torrents, using marijuana or trading oil, etc.

Not to mention when the state itself seems to be breaking the very laws it is making, one might have an even stronger moral arguments for breaking the laws... Why should the citizen be more lawful then the state???

The oil was NOT banned. Where are you guys getting these irrelevant details from?

 

[atticus]

Quote from Maverick74:

Surf, I'm not talking about the law. Where in my post did I ever mention the law. I'm talking about WHERE he GOT his oil FROM. I could give two shits about what he did or did not pay in taxes. This is EXACTLY why the child trafficking analogy was valid.

+1

The guy bought embargoed oil from despots at $12 and sold it at $25 to US corps. He did this for >13 years. Obviously we're not talking about free-market economics or capitalism here.

 

[atticus]

Quote from Pekelo:

I can't believe I fully agree with Surf...



No it can't. As Surf promptly noted, there is a huge difference between variables that almost everyone find repulsing to trade and ones that a state decides to be forbidden. Just because a powerful entity declares something to be banned, that doesn't mean dealing with it is against my morals, be it downloading torrents, using marijuana or trading oil, etc.

Not to mention when the state itself seems to be breaking the very laws it is making, one might have an even stronger moral arguments for breaking the laws... Why should the citizen be more lawful then the state???

omg really? You familiar with the UN? If child-trafficking were declared legal in some sub-Saharan African shithole it would make it ok?

Edit: I just saw Mav's reference to child-trafficking. I didn't realize I was making a similar analogy.

 

[marketsurfer]

Quote from atticus:

+1

The guy bought embargoed oil from despots at $12 and sold it at $25 to US corps. He did this for >13 years. Obviously we're not talking about free-market economics or capitalism here.

was the oil embargoed worldwide?

How are you defining despot? an enemy of the U.S.? Are you aware of the morality of everyone on the other side of your trades? If one of the folks you traded with was a truly evil person, would you quash the trade?

This seems like really grey area to me-- but admittally I dont' know all the facts. I am certainly not defending MR, but maybe someone could explain how what he did was equivelent to child trafficking?

surf

 

[Maverick74]

Quote from marketsurfer:

How are you defining despot? an enemy of the U.S.? Are you aware of the morality of everyone on the other side of your trades? If one of the folks you traded with was a truly evil person, would you quash the trade?

This seems like really grey area to me-- but admittally I dont' know all the facts.

surf

Surf,take a day off and google Marc Rich, or better yet, there are countless books out there about him. The TV show 60 Minutes did a few exposes on him over the years. Learn a little more about the backstory. You are acting as if he is a legitimate guy that just had some bad vices.

Let me offer one more analogy. You are familiar with blood diamonds out of Africa right? People who are forced into slavery and tortured and killed over extracting these diamonds out of the soil and then selling them on the open market for huge profits. Same thing. The money is made because the commodity, in this case diamonds, is being acquired at less then wholesale costs because of the nature of the forced labor. That allows these ruthless dictators to amass huge fortunes and power off the destruction of others. This is not a LEGAL opinion or one where I simply disagree with some other countries culture or way of life or politics. You would be hard pressed to find anyone in the western world that would view blood diamonds as "subjective" based on one's own morality.

 

[marketsurfer]

Ok, Mav, thanks. Like I stated, I am not defending him as my knowledge is weak regarding his crimes---but he did receive a presidential pardon which I don't think a really bad guy could ever obtain regardless of monies or influence--- with that said, this remains a fascinating story which I will look into deeper.

 

[Maverick74]

Quote from marketsurfer:

Ok, Mav, thanks. Like I stated, I am not defending him as my knowledge is weak regarding his crimes---but he did receive a presidential pardon which I don't think a really bad guy could ever obtain regardless of monies or influence--- with that said, this remains a fascinating story which I will look into deeper.

OMG Surf, do you some reading and you will see EXACTLY why he got that pardon. Surf, you really don't know the backstory between the Clintons, Marc Rich and Vince Foster and all the murders? Just type in Marc Rich and Hilary Clinton in google and poor yourself a cold one and sit back and read. I'm shocked you know so little about this guy. Probably the most corrupt businessman to ever live. I'm dead serious, I can't think of anyone worse.

 

[pemully]

it was Michael steinhardt who wrote directly to Clinton asking him to pardon Marc.Afterall steinhardt had backed him financially and Clinton knew he might need all the friends he can get after retirement.I can't blame him.

 

[atticus]

Quote from pemully:

it was Michael steinhardt who wrote directly to Clinton asking him to pardon Marc.Afterall steinhardt had backed him financially and Clinton knew he might need all the friends he can get after retirement.I can't blame him.

Yes, the Israelis stick together. Newsflash. Hey, if I were surrounded by ppls who wanted to behead me then I would form a pretty strong clique as well. Oh, wait a sec....