Making JH' SCT and all his material alive

[WchPl]

Aa has an Int (wait) but not a UL, it defines volume as a HVBO (>P1 leftmost) in the zone above Bc when P2<P1.

This case would mirror Ab EE as an A-band EE still active even though B-Band has initiated AND it would satisfy Tiddywink's assertion of Aa having a four bar context that includes a T2P. This also resolves the path to Ad since an EE on the sequence like P1,T1,P2,P1 (where P2<P1) would interrupt the path to the rev chron P1 after the P2.

That's how I'd see what you say here.

I'm studying the post the quoted is from, and it's greatly hard and deep. Love it, although it's really hard.

I feel a bit overwhelmed at the moment, maybe a break should be welcome. I don't know what I could do now, I don't know what to go/start with. This happens when I'm overwhelmed.
I take a break.

 

[Sprout]

This is not complete and unsatisfying and maybe partly wrong
View attachment 204854

HVBO and LVBO are line boundaries at P1 and T1.

The numbered zones are where the EE's would be or the volume elements.

It's clearer if you put 'wait' as a precondition (prerequisite/required) under your volume element labels with arrows pointing in-between measured volume bars which is functionally what it does.

By alpha labeling preconditions, you can place the EE's with the alpha reference. ie A- P2>P1, B- P1>P2, C- Int UL, etc. I put outline boxes around my alpha's and they are smaller typeface to create a clearer distinction from the EE labeling. So for Ag hvbo - A is req, Ac-1 hvbo - C is req.

I had to use 2x 11x17 1/4" graph paper taped together (22x17) to have enough space to map all the EE's. My P1 was 4x20 1/4" squares, T1 was 4x4 1/4", etc,... this created enough room to list all the preconditions required per EE.

By also placing the volume element ranges onto it, it also creates a comprehensive map of what, when, where and how.

Pencil, paper and eraser also makes working through the placements much easier and faster.


Yes, breaks are great, naps even better - give the subconscious a chance to process and build associations.

 

[Simples]

Excel/Open Office are good tools electronically, both for 2D mapping and prototyping.
Mapping, generally, is a heavily underestimated powertool. Imagine exploring unknown territory without mapping. Or going into war without a map! For this, graph paper probably easiest option. Point is, instead of starting over all the time, to build on what one have. History is full of examples of right idea at the right time 0.0001% of the time. The difference is between the doers, those that do, and those that think about, revere, burn or ignore the doers.

 

[WchPl]

A Band
A band comes when the parallelogram is formed.
Since volume is in bars I named this oontext as "four bar". The sequence to four bar is: P1 to T1 to P2 to T2P. On a parallelogram it is Pt1 to BO of RTL to pt2 to pt 3.

I see this fuzzy, and contradictory. Why so ?
- When does A-band become active ? -> when P2 is there.
- in the OOE, where is P2 ? -> in third position
- what does come before ? -> the second and first element.
- which are they ? -> T1 and P1.
- So, when we are at P2, we've had P1-T1-P2. These are three bars.
- on the dependant variable pane, where are P1-T1-P2 on a neutral chart of Set C ? -> P1 is on pt1, T1 is on BO,T1 and P2 is on pt2.
- how many points in terms of price are there when P2 surges ? -> two, pt1 and pt2.
- how many points do we need to define geometrically a parallelogram ? -> three
- then, are two points enough to form the parallelogram ? -> it is not.

That's why I see contradictory to say A-band comes when the parallelogram is formed. When the parallelogram is formed, we have three points in price, when pt3 is there, T2P must have surged. If T2P surged, B-band is active and A-band is killed.

Need to clear this.

 

[tiddlywinks]

Your ridgidness will lead to problems IMO.
I'll address a few of the items you've mentioned, knowing full well there is likely disagreement amongst peers, or the very least, a "discussion" to ensue.

- So, when we are at P2, we've had P1-T1-P2. These are three bars.

OB's, IBGS, mis-ID's, and other market events, either independently or combined can create 1-bar or 2-bar OOE. Saying there are 3 bars is not accurate.

how many points in terms of price are there when P2 surges ? -> two, pt1 and pt2.

Again, too rigid. Particularly with regards to beginning tapes and sub-fractals where bar-by-bar geometric points are determined.

P1, P2, and even P3 annotations "could be" interchanged. As can T1, T2P/F. These "annotations" are not meant as geometric labeling but rather the existence of peaks and troughs as it relates to a specific OOE. The two methods, geometric and RDBMS are complimentary, not one in the same.

Market is open, time to trade.

 

[WchPl]

Need to clear this.

Maybe the solution is to understand the A-band "COMES". Just like tiddly who said there is to be clear with the T2P present in the trend.
When T2P comes, it's an A-band pass. In other words, the level of next bar is inside the A-band boundaries.
Or it can hvbo, or it can be lvbo.

I need to stay on the case I was lastly stuck with. Here it is illustrated and rebuilt :

All price bars allow to measure volume until bar 6 which appears implicitely with the arrow and the "wait" label, and are making the trend progress.

Bar 1 : P1 is assigned
Bar 2 : Vol is DEC : T1
Bar 3 : Vol is DEC : T1 repeats. Here begins for me something fuzzy and uncertain that I want and need to clarify. We have another T1 then. If the next bar is between those last two T1's, we'll have PP2. Let's have a look at the PP! sheet about, focusing on PP2 :

A wait between the two T1's would kill the PP2.-> there is no wait in our case.
Next -> a PP2 in the description is a P2 between two T1's. If I follow the way of labeling bars, if we have three bars, then the first bar in order of appearance is bar.2, the second is bar.1 and the most present bar is bar.0.
In the additional requirements for PP2, we can see : P2 must be > T1.1, which must be the first of the two T1's AND P2 must be < T1.0. That is impossible.
If we have with no wait, two T1's in a row, then T1.0 is necessarily below T1.1. Then if we have P2 coming after the second T1 (T1.0), it must necessarily be above it AND it will either be above T1.1 aso or between the two T1's. If it's above T1.1, it's necessarily also above T1.0 being as T1.0 must be under T1.1. And in this case, the trend would be progressing.
But, if the P2 coming up is between the two T1's, then we have PP2 so we have an EE and the trend is interrupted. But, to have the P2 between the two T1's, we must necessarily have :

P2 > T1.0 AND P2 <T1.1 so -> T1.1 > P2 > T1.0

This contradicts what is on the sheet. So either a typo, or I'm missing something, necessarily.
In any case, I'm searching for clarity here.


Another thing : as you can see, I make appear a light yellow zone 1. It deals with the A-band, and here I'm gonna expose something that i'm searching for clarity with too.
The high boundary of A-band is P1. The low boundary is T1. But, what if there is a second T1 ? I wonder if the A-band established firstly by the P1 and the first T1, extends itself downwards and gets a new low boundary, being second T1. This was Zone 1.


Back to the illustration :

Bar 4 : volume is INC, and it's above both T1's before. So it's a P2, there is no EE, the trend progresses. As the litterature states, when P2 is there, the paralellogram is established (although I d'ont understand why this can be true being as we need three points in the dependant variable to establish the parallelogram which are pt1, pt2 and pt3, and at P2 we only have two points defining a rtl and not a parallelogram) AND at P2, the A-band is initiated.
The pragmatic context for "a four bar" is there, although T2P is not present.

bar 5 : volume is DEC AND it's above leftmost T1. So it fills the definition of a T2P. As states the litterature, when T2P is there we have : the four bars context established AND the B-band initiated AND we know when a band is active, then only the EE's of this band can surge. Prior's and next's bands-EE's can't happen. The high bounday of B-band is P2 and the low boundary is T2P.

bar 6 : price prevents to measure volume. We have a wait. With this wait AND the T2P present, the scene is clearly set for Aa. And here begins again the problem for me : we are in B-band....how can an A"x" EE appear ?.... To think about a solution for that, I needed the next bar.

Bar 7 : volume is INC AND it's under P2 so it's a T2P repeat. And HERE begins the space where I began to perceive the posibility of a solution : as you can see, I've made appear a zone 2 and a zone 3. What I wonder is :
- when second T2P comes and reveals itself, is the B-band bounded from high by P2 to low by : first T2P ? second T2P ?
If the B-band remains intact after T2P band pass happen, the boundaries would still be from P2 as high boundary to leftmost T2P as low boundary, and therefore the B-band contains both zone 2 and 3, and extends itself until there is either HVBO or LVBO.
OR
The B-band kind of reduces itself as its new low boundary is the second T2P, and B-band would only be then Zone 2 (red).
bar 6 : price prevents to measure volume. We have a wait. With this wait AND the T2P present, the scene is clearly set for Aa. And here begins again the problem for me : we are in B-band....how can an A"x" EE appear ?.... To think about a solution for that, I needed the next bar.
Here is what I'm thinking about : It has been stated when a new band initiates, the prior one is killed. More precisely, it has been stated when B-band becomes active, A-band is killed.
But I know Aa can appear when T2P is there...so when B-band is there too.. contradictory..
Maybe it is that when T2P appears, the zone comprised in this illustrated case between P1 and P2 is the reduced part of A-band extending itself. And this would make any volume bar ending in that zone a possible EE of the A-band.

All this seems wrong to me. I feel confused. I see it does not stick to logic.

Bar 8 : that is the problematic bar for me at the moment. This bar (is under T1) AND (is after a second T2P SO B-band is active and A-band is killed). Here is my DD :
- we've said it's possible to see an EE requiring the presence (or the pragmatically established context for) of T2P AND the presence of a wait along the path, even when T2P is not there yet, for example because of the presence of a wait. So we can have this Aa EE with or whithout the presence of T2P. At least we need the trend to have progressed until P2.
How I would say that is : one can find an EE even though :
- the congruent band is still not active at this moment
OR
- the congruent band is not active yet at this moment.

If this is true, I'd say that bar 8 can be an Fd EE.
- which band do we need to see active to find F's EEs ? -> F-band
- which is, in the OOE of bands, the prior band to the F one ? -> C-band. There is just Ca as EE of this band but what I see in the B-through K bands is that it's not an EE, it's a Band-pass. Effectively, it's logic being as the description says it's a volume level comprised between upper limit T2P and lower limit T2F.
- I'm not sure about this, but I do think for now that to see any of the F's EE, one need T2F to be there.
- this reminds me the "to see an Aa we need a four bar context with P1-T1-P2-T2P ALL present in the trend". But we've seen the truth is not exactly what this sentence seems to say. Once we have P2 AND a wait preventing T2P to surge, we can find the Aa EE.
- so my DD would be that we can say when T2P is there, it established pragmatically the context for the C-band so for T2F to happen AND therefore this would lead to ID this 8th bar Fd being as it's the only EE I see after that sequence P1-T1-T1-P2-T2P-Wait-T2P, that can be a LVBO under T1.
- BUT, I also see the lower limit for Fd to surge is...T1... back to contradiction. If the lower limit is T1, how can this EE be a volume level which is below T1 ?...

I'm not sure about what to do to solve this, there are surely plenty of errors/omissions, inconsistencies in what I just described. I'm doing my best to find a way, or an exercise to get to the understanding of this scenario. It's a door that, when opened, will open many others, but for now, it remains closed for me.

 

[WchPl]

Your image needs the bands refined. T2P coming into being initiates B-band by defining boundaries for reference, A-band is active on that bar as a possible LVBO and HVBO zones where volume would exist on EOB. B-band EE’s do not exist until the n+1 bar from the T2P.

This provides clarity to me at the moment, although I can't express it correctly yet.

I will build a serie of snippets trying to incorporate the alpha preconditions as you said, and solve other issues as for some EE's, hoping it will lead me to further DDs and maybe, to understand the case I illustrated above with that bar 8.
I'd just like to find the correct ID on that situation, so that I could continue to log the chart I'm stuck on currently.

But right now, nap time

 

[Simples]

I see this fuzzy, and contradictory. Why so ?
- When does A-band become active ? -> when P2 is there.
- in the OOE, where is P2 ? -> in third position
- what does come before ? -> the second and first element.
- which are they ? -> T1 and P1.
- So, when we are at P2, we've had P1-T1-P2. These are three bars.
- on the dependant variable pane, where are P1-T1-P2 on a neutral chart of Set C ? -> P1 is on pt1, T1 is on BO,T1 and P2 is on pt2.
- how many points in terms of price are there when P2 surges ? -> two, pt1 and pt2.
- how many points do we need to define geometrically a parallelogram ? -> three
- then, are two points enough to form the parallelogram ? -> it is not.

That's why I see contradictory to say A-band comes when the parallelogram is formed. When the parallelogram is formed, we have three points in price, when pt3 is there, T2P must have surged. If T2P surged, B-band is active and A-band is killed.

Need to clear this.

It's NOT intuitive! This doesn't mean a person can't learn a new language. HVBO after T1 is VTP element __ ?

EE in A Band may replace what would be a normal pt3 t2p.. Even on __.

Text for PP3 is interesting regarding bar position in trend.

 

[tiddlywinks]

bar 6 : price prevents to measure volume. We have a wait. With this wait AND the T2P present, the scene is clearly set for Aa. And here begins again the problem for me : we are in B-band....how can an A"x" EE appear ?.... To think about a solution for that, I needed the next bar.

Wait is not measurable. There is no T2P at bar 6. The "pragmatic" is a definition of the B-Band ... upper limit is P2, lower limit is T1. P2 is required to create those boundaries. The actual width of B-band is not created until a measurable T2P comes along. In this way, the B-Band is established "pragmatically".

And while it is true that only one band can be in affect for any one EE, once a band has been established it does not disappear previous bands. As bands come into being, MORE EE's become available for use, until the sequence resets. For instance you can have a OB PP! anywhere, or a PP1c even though B-band is "active". Or PP6a even though C-band is "active". Or Ab even though B-band or C-band is active.

Bar 6 is WAIT... no measurement allowed.
Bar 7 is T2P. Actual B-band width is fully established.
Bar 8 is Ab


Post #950 in the butt thread... Jack shows an example where a complete volume sequence "pooped out".

https://www.elitetrader.com/et/thre...-on-a-daily-basis.275733/page-95#post-3898833

 

[Sprout]

Maybe the solution is to understand the A-band "COMES". Just like tiddly who said there is to be clear with the T2P present in the trend.
When T2P comes, it's an A-band pass. In other words, the level of next bar is inside the A-band boundaries.
Or it can hvbo, or it can be lvbo.

I need to stay on the case I was lastly stuck with. Here it is illustrated and rebuilt :

View attachment 205003

All price bars allow to measure volume until bar 6 which appears implicitely with the arrow and the "wait" label, and are making the trend progress.

Bar 1 : P1 is assigned
Bar 2 : Vol is DEC : T1
Bar 3 : Vol is DEC : T1 repeats. Here begins for me something fuzzy and uncertain that I want and need to clarify. We have another T1 then. If the next bar is between those last two T1's, we'll have PP2. Let's have a look at the PP! sheet about, focusing on PP2 :
View attachment 205004

A wait between the two T1's would kill the PP2.-> there is no wait in our case.
Next -> a PP2 in the description is a P2 between two T1's. If I follow the way of labeling bars, if we have three bars, then the first bar in order of appearance is bar.2, the second is bar.1 and the most present bar is bar.0.
In the additional requirements for PP2, we can see : P2 must be > T1.1, which must be the first of the two T1's AND P2 must be < T1.0. That is impossible.
If we have with no wait, two T1's in a row, then T1.0 is necessarily below T1.1. Then if we have P2 coming after the second T1 (T1.0), it must necessarily be above it AND it will either be above T1.1 aso or between the two T1's. If it's above T1.1, it's necessarily also above T1.0 being as T1.0 must be under T1.1. And in this case, the trend would be progressing.
But, if the P2 coming up is between the two T1's, then we have PP2 so we have an EE and the trend is interrupted. But, to have the P2 between the two T1's, we must necessarily have :

P2 > T1.0 AND P2 <T1.1 so -> T1.1 > P2 > T1.0

This contradicts what is on the sheet. So either a typo, or I'm missing something, necessarily.
In any case, I'm searching for clarity here.


Another thing : as you can see, I make appear a light yellow zone 1. It deals with the A-band, and here I'm gonna expose something that i'm searching for clarity with too.
The high boundary of A-band is P1. The low boundary is T1. But, what if there is a second T1 ? I wonder if the A-band established firstly by the P1 and the first T1, extends itself downwards and gets a new low boundary, being second T1. This was Zone 1.


Back to the illustration :

View attachment 205003

Bar 4 : volume is INC, and it's above both T1's before. So it's a P2, there is no EE, the trend progresses. As the litterature states, when P2 is there, the paralellogram is established (although I d'ont understand why this can be true being as we need three points in the dependant variable to establish the parallelogram which are pt1, pt2 and pt3, and at P2 we only have two points defining a rtl and not a parallelogram) AND at P2, the A-band is initiated.
The pragmatic context for "a four bar" is there, although T2P is not present.

bar 5 : volume is DEC AND it's above leftmost T1. So it fills the definition of a T2P. As states the litterature, when T2P is there we have : the four bars context established AND the B-band initiated AND we know when a band is active, then only the EE's of this band can surge. Prior's and next's bands-EE's can't happen. The high bounday of B-band is P2 and the low boundary is T2P.

bar 6 : price prevents to measure volume. We have a wait. With this wait AND the T2P present, the scene is clearly set for Aa. And here begins again the problem for me : we are in B-band....how can an A"x" EE appear ?.... To think about a solution for that, I needed the next bar.

Bar 7 : volume is INC AND it's under P2 so it's a T2P repeat. And HERE begins the space where I began to perceive the posibility of a solution : as you can see, I've made appear a zone 2 and a zone 3. What I wonder is :
- when second T2P comes and reveals itself, is the B-band bounded from high by P2 to low by : first T2P ? second T2P ?
If the B-band remains intact after T2P band pass happen, the boundaries would still be from P2 as high boundary to leftmost T2P as low boundary, and therefore the B-band contains both zone 2 and 3, and extends itself until there is either HVBO or LVBO.
OR
The B-band kind of reduces itself as its new low boundary is the second T2P, and B-band would only be then Zone 2 (red).
bar 6 : price prevents to measure volume. We have a wait. With this wait AND the T2P present, the scene is clearly set for Aa. And here begins again the problem for me : we are in B-band....how can an A"x" EE appear ?.... To think about a solution for that, I needed the next bar.
Here is what I'm thinking about : It has been stated when a new band initiates, the prior one is killed. More precisely, it has been stated when B-band becomes active, A-band is killed.
But I know Aa can appear when T2P is there...so when B-band is there too.. contradictory..
Maybe it is that when T2P appears, the zone comprised in this illustrated case between P1 and P2 is the reduced part of A-band extending itself. And this would make any volume bar ending in that zone a possible EE of the A-band.

All this seems wrong to me. I feel confused. I see it does not stick to logic.

Bar 8 : that is the problematic bar for me at the moment. This bar (is under T1) AND (is after a second T2P SO B-band is active and A-band is killed). Here is my DD :
- we've said it's possible to see an EE requiring the presence (or the pragmatically established context for) of T2P AND the presence of a wait along the path, even when T2P is not there yet, for example because of the presence of a wait. So we can have this Aa EE with or whithout the presence of T2P. At least we need the trend to have progressed until P2.
How I would say that is : one can find an EE even though :
- the congruent band is still not active at this moment
OR
- the congruent band is not active yet at this moment.

If this is true, I'd say that bar 8 can be an Fd EE.
- which band do we need to see active to find F's EEs ? -> F-band
- which is, in the OOE of bands, the prior band to the F one ? -> C-band. There is just Ca as EE of this band but what I see in the B-through K bands is that it's not an EE, it's a Band-pass. Effectively, it's logic being as the description says it's a volume level comprised between upper limit T2P and lower limit T2F.
- I'm not sure about this, but I do think for now that to see any of the F's EE, one need T2F to be there.
- this reminds me the "to see an Aa we need a four bar context with P1-T1-P2-T2P ALL present in the trend". But we've seen the truth is not exactly what this sentence seems to say. Once we have P2 AND a wait preventing T2P to surge, we can find the Aa EE.
- so my DD would be that we can say when T2P is there, it established pragmatically the context for the C-band so for T2F to happen AND therefore this would lead to ID this 8th bar Fd being as it's the only EE I see after that sequence P1-T1-T1-P2-T2P-Wait-T2P, that can be a LVBO under T1.
- BUT, I also see the lower limit for Fd to surge is...T1... back to contradiction. If the lower limit is T1, how can this EE be a volume level which is below T1 ?...

I'm not sure about what to do to solve this, there are surely plenty of errors/omissions, inconsistencies in what I just described. I'm doing my best to find a way, or an exercise to get to the understanding of this scenario. It's a door that, when opened, will open many others, but for now, it remains closed for me.

Creating an EE map is like a jigsaw puzzle; it easier to complete when one places the obvious pieces before working with the 'harder' pieces to place. In your drawing, focus first on distinct single volume elements before adding repeats.

Even though A-band uses P1 and T1 as references, it doesn't initiate until P2. Your drawings imply something different. In one way it is an accurate representation, but it also creates an assumption that are like blinders.

It would be easier for you to create all the bars in the secondary OOE and beyond as transparent bars. This way, depending on the leading edge of the independent variable one can 'see' which zone PRV places the bar to have a leading indicator.

Without PRV then EOB is the 'lock-in'.

To refine the idea of B-band killing A-band, it does in the zone that B-band defines. Bands continue to be active until an new band redefines references and/or zones. Understanding the OOE's of OOE's gives insight into this.

To speak to your current sticking point, since T2F has not initiated; an ID using C-band or any band thereafter is not possible, therefore the ID must exist in a prior band still active.


If one eliminates what something cannot be, then all that is left is something that it must be.

Search for ncx's mango post #912 in Iagmahtmoadb thread, it's an excellent summation of the above thought and also gives insight into the not's and not not's.


Yes, good for you. Naps are an essential aspect of integrating this work into LTM.