Making a living with a $30K account

[rcanfiel]

Quote from jack hershey:

Thanks for making the effort you did. I didn't catch some of the ranfiel, only the parts you quoted.... [/B]

A person who puts someone on ignore and then tries to address them in the third person is about as pathetic as it gets. I suppose you think you can say things then and not have to worry about anyone questioning your sanity.

My style of terminating others will be to tell them they are on ignore and to request that they put me on ignore."

Soon, you will only be talking to yourself, then.

 

[bsparkyman]

Jack steps it up in the progression of syntax!!!! Your emotions give you away on days like this jackie!!! Now that I have seen your picture I realized our paths have crossed, I will be gentle, like your MAMA!!!!

Jack is an NLP practitioner and and a very gifted storyteller!!!!

Quote from jack hershey:

Thanks for making the effort you did. I didn't catch some of the ranfiel, only the parts you quoted.

One thing is for sure, working at an IB is not the place to meet any traders of note.

I also think that anyone approached by ranfiel would run the other way immediately.

The whole spectrum of support services for really top traders are carefully chosen to say the least. ranfiel doesn't use any of these services, so he is very unfamiliar with their security and conventional boiler plate regarding information. I thought he was into doing IT for a while but apparently he has never gotten to "prove ins" for top trading styles in any way.

I've seen tech people at trading operations and they cannot "jump" to put in fixes that can easily be discovered by anyone inspecting a shop.

here is a for instance. A guy want to trade so he places a limit order that he knows will be immediately turned into a market order. But he doesn't get a fill. What is the screw up and where is it in the chain. Don't ask an IT guy to fix the scre up. don't expect the trader to know what is wrong. As for me, and Spyder, we are on it in a New York minute.

Telling a shop that they have a problem like this and they do not know it can take as long as 15 minutes to make the point.

Here at ET, I get the feeling that these kinds of people are inveterate bluffers. I am putting a whole bunch of these types on ignore from this point on. My hope is that they will put me on ignore as well.

People whom you meet in the industry will engage with you; people in the industry will run as fast as they can in the opposite direction from ranfiel. He is a recognizable nuisance in no time flat.

Do put him on ignore.

When a person becomes a traders he gives consideration to a lot of things. One of those is the "prying eyes set of considerations. It is also called "security".

By having your IB take care of regulations and meeting their requirements, you set in place a buffer and you also can eliminate a lot of "reporting" requirements.

Where are reporting requirements information kept. A lot of it is kept out of view. It simply is no one else's business. This is a way the regulators protect people who want to stay below the radar.

What about people who want their business known and made available to others? They fit into another category. They file and their information is found in a common standard format and it available to those who seek it.

Over time, a category of people in the financial industry has come into being and it is the vendor category. ranfiel is a vendor and he uses two outlets: collective2 and the web by having some sort of vending operation that involves paying for a consideration. He does not, however, fit into the category of filing trading results as a professional.

He is now at a Phishing stage to try to find something that he can sell to others for some purpose. that is why he has never met anyone who is accomplished; they immediately run the other way.

People who are sceptics get treated in a manner that is the result of the trust that they engender. In New York I spent three hours (6 to 9pm) with a combo of broker reps. We looked at three ring binders of power point like illustrations of a four day seminar we conducted for 22 people in late January. these people were less sceptics than just exhibitors who wished to serve their client population better. In a matter of a couple of months they spent four days with us by us going to their offices. They saw live trading with real money during the business week. we saw their trading, too. There was a difference in money velocity of profit taking. for a period of 30 years they had not encountered such a trading kind of situation.

You have seen great trading and so have I in many different places. My experience includes about 50 years yours includes 10 years and renfiel's 20 years includes nothing in good or great trading. Nor Does surfer's apparently except for Sypder's performance for him. So I put surfer on ignore because people are running the other direction when they see him coming too, apparently. He said he trades traders so there are two levels of not seeing anything in his experience.

Thunderdog goes on ignore for me today. He has nothing to contribute because he has a standard that makes what traders like many people I meet at conferences and in shops look unbelievable and astonishing. Why do people run from him wherever he is? It is the same as why they run from rnafiel and surfer and many others who have never seen any trading of any note. They all have identifiable characteristics that make them unattractive. If I an some others like me are in a room where a presentation is going on by a great trader, then generally the presenter recognizes us. Certainly I look funny so I am easy to recognize. But there is one other reason each of us is recognizable. You have that quality too. We all approach one another with pertinent questions. Good forwarding questions turn out to be the hallmark by which one good or great trader can recognize another.

At this point I am, on a daily basis, narrowing what I see on ET.

There are many great trading methods or approaches. There are many great contemporary traders.

Happily there are many newer and dynamic traders coming onto the scene. They have, as this thread's OP shows, a common characteristic. They are asking questions of different ET good and great trader's pertinent questions in streams that forward their individual and independent pursuits.

I'm sure the owners of ET wanted the forums to be productive for everyone. The limits of productivity are continually enhanced by multiple interactions that are forwarding. The hits tolerance level is self adjusting for anyone. Mine was a tolerance level that handled anything at all up until recently. Now, I don't want to relate to anyone but good and great traders and people who have the character to become good and great traders by their intent to grow and develop a sound methodology no matter what it may be. I do not use the P and L to assess that. What I use is the pleasant participation of the person with others and also the substantive content of that participation.

My style of terminating others will be to tell them they are on ignore and to request that they put me on ignore.

You really put good questions to ranfiel and he didn't cut it as a trader or as an adult. He is Phishing and he is going to do others harm if he gets the chance. Thank you for forwarding the basic purposes of ET.

 

[djxput]

Maybe this was already suggested ...

Have your friend set up a system for himself.

Have him start with 1 contract trade it until he reaches X
then go to 2 contracts. If $ drops back to a certain amount - reduce to 1 contract again ...

Set goals for 1 2 3 4 5 contracts etc ...

and set 'punishment' goals if profit falls below or there is a loss of X amount.

Simple enough but will be hard to have the discipline to stick with it if hes itching to play the game and make that much money.

I do agree thou that 10 tracts of ES with 30k is pushing the margin levels to the extreme.
One big goof and you lose alot of $

if he cant make it with one tract he cant make it with 10,000
(although commisions might be better with 10,000 <g>)

 

[Paulds11]

Your freind actually sounds experienced in the markets already. As such he will have a good and steep learning curve he will adapt to easily..

He seems to have a good temprament for the markets..

as such I believe he can be profitable and hit his target.. why?.. because everyone here is looking at this guy through the prism of thier own expereinces and actually none of us know him or his abilities. As such let me tell you thier are many many people who have a $30K account and repeatedly extract a living of the magnitude you have referred to.

All he needs to do is find one specific focus, maximise his control of that and trade away without emotions and bang...


Do not let others experiences cloud judgment.. the markets are an intensely personal thing in that we choose which particular way to trade that suits our style.. it is dangerous to seek generalizations because everyone is so absolutely unique...

Of course he can reach his target.. but Im sure he is astute enough to know he may go through a period of flat-lining or even losing for a while.. thats where his initial concentration should be... minimizing loss of course.... are you sure your "friend" isnt actually you?

Paul

 

[rcanfiel]

Quote from Paulds11:

"Your freind actually sounds experienced in the markets already. As such he will have a good and steep learning curve he will adapt to easily..

He seems to have a good temprament for the markets.."

Given your enamourment with Oscar, it is not surprising you have missed the warning signs. The friend is on a one way trip to Risk-of-Ruinville. Profits are not made through Rah Rah "you go, guy" support.

"As such let me tell you thier are many many people who have a $30K account and repeatedly extract a living of the magnitude you have referred to."

I doubt you are one of them. You sound like a cheerleader, not someone who grasps reality. FEW people do what you describe, not "many, many"

 

[fundjunkie]

Quote from insaneinvestor:

This seems unrealistic to me. Can someone explain how you can know this before you get in?

What is implied when recommending fixed risk/reward ratios is that you always trade with stops. But depending on a system's trade profile stops can be unacceptably detrimental to overall performance, ie. you'd be significantly better off taking the hit on outlier trades than placing stops (perhaps maintaining a disaster stop to limit risk on "outlier" outlier days. In reality a more flexible exit strategy is called for, though alot harder to implement.

Of course, all this assumes a robust system and associated position sizing strategy.

 

[Paulds11]

Quote from rcanfiel:


Given your enamourment with Oscar, it is not surprising you have missed the warning signs. The friend is on a one way trip to Risk-of-Ruinville. Profits are not made through Rah Rah "you go, guy" support.

"As such let me tell you thier are many many people who have a $30K account and repeatedly extract a living of the magnitude you have referred to."

I doubt you are one of them. You sound like a cheerleader, not someone who grasps reality. FEW people do what you describe, not "many, many" [/B]

WHO THE F@;/ DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? MISSED THE WARNING SIGNS? THIS DUDE NEEDS ENCOURAGEMENT TO LEARN THATS WHAT THE RAH RAH IS ABOUT OR ARE YOU SAYING HE IS FINISHED.. WHERE ARE YOU GOING WITH THIS? WHAT IS YOUR CONTRIBUTION HERE EXACTLY.. DO WE REALLY WANT THIS TYPE OF ATTACK AND WASTEFUL COMMENT THAT SERVES TO DO WHAT? TELL EVERYONE YOU KNOW HOW IT IS? COME AGAIN RCANFEL

YOU SAID YOU DOUBT I AM EARNING XYZ.. WHY HAVE YOU BROUGHT ME INTO THIS? THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO MAKE MONEY FROM THE MARKETS, NOT FEW YOU STUPID IDIOT.. NEARLY EVERYONE IS ABLE TO EXTRACT THOUDSANDS OF POUNDS FROM THE UTTERLY LIQUID MASSIVE MARKETS... THIS IS A FACT

FEW PEOPLE MAKE MONEY? REALLY? NO.. MANY PEOPLE MAKE MONEY WHAT MATTERS IS THE RELATIVE PROPORTION OF WINS TO LOSSES YOU DOOFUS AND THAT IS WHAT YOU HAVE NOT GRASPED WITH YOUR BANAL AND MISPLACED CONDESCENSION.

HERE WE GO AGAIN.. THE SAME SILLY REPLIES FROM A DOOFUS WHO CHOOSES TO SHOOT DOWN THE OPINION OF OTHERS WITHOUT CLARIFICATION, CLASS OR RESTRAINT IN THE KNOWLEDGE THAT ANYONE ELSE ACTUALLY MAY HAVE A POINT OF NOTE. ALL THIS FROM A GUY WHO HAS THE AUDACITY TO:

1.REPEATEDLY CONDEMN A PERSON OFFERING A SERVICE AND YET VOCIFEROUSLY FOLLOW AND ANALYSE THAT SAME PERSONS DAILY CALLS..WHAT AN OXYMORONIC THING TO DO
2. FROM A PERSON WHO ATTACKS WITHOUT MERIT OR CLARITY OF THOUGHT, WHO SHOOTS FROM THE HIP AND DISPLAYS UNFOUNDED ARROGANCE WITH PEOPLE SEEMINGLY HUMBLE DIRECT AND HONEST..AND ALL WITHOUT ACTUALLY ADDING ANYTHING OF VALUE.. IAM STRUGGLING TO FIND ANY ENCOURAGEMENT IN ANY OF YOUR POSTS YOU VITRIOLIC SELF ABSORBED NUMPTY RED NECK WITH A CHIP ON HIS SHOULDERS
3. ALL THIS FROM SOMEONE WHO HAS ARGUED WITH PASSION THAT TECHNICAL ANALYSIS DOESNT WORK.. & YOU STILL WANT US TO TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY? YOU THINK YOUR COMMENT HAS VALUE? OHH REALLY?... COME AGAIN..
4. WE HAVE COME TO DISCOVER THAT YOU ABOUT THESE BOARDS TRYING TO ACTUALLY SELL SOMETHING OR PROMOTE SOMETHING YOURSELF..THAT EXPLAINS A LOT ABOUT YOU AND YOUR MOTIVES

AND YET AGAIN YOU COME HERE AND MISS THE POINT WITH YOUR OVERTLY BASIC INTERPRETATION OF MY WORDS SEEKING PERSONAL LEVERAGE AND MISSING THE POINT OF THESE BOARDS WHICH IS UNDERSTANDING AND BALANCED CONTRIBUTION NOT BROW BEATING, BELLY ACHING AND SELF PROMOTION

PEOPLE ARE SICK OF YOUR ATTTITUDE, YOUR A JERK, LOOK AT YOURSELF..

GO ON THEN LETS HEAR YOUR SILLY REPOST.. YOUR SELF AGGRANDIZING ONE LINER.. GIVE US YOUR BEST QUOTES OF PLAGARISED WORD OF WISDOM WE ALL KNOW IS USED TO ELEVATE YOUR OWN FEELINGS OF SELF IMPORTANCE NOT TO PROVIDE AN AID FOR ANYONE OR INDEED THIS GUY WHO HAS COME HEAR LOOKING FOR HELP AND UNDERSTANDING..

YOUR BORE US TO DEATH

 

[mcichocki]

Quote from Paulds11:

Your freind actually sounds experienced in the markets already. As such he will have a good and steep learning curve he will adapt to easily..

He seems to have a good temprament for the markets..

as such I believe he can be profitable and hit his target.. why?.. because everyone here is looking at this guy through the prism of thier own expereinces and actually none of us know him or his abilities. As such let me tell you thier are many many people who have a $30K account and repeatedly extract a living of the magnitude you have referred to.

All he needs to do is find one specific focus, maximise his control of that and trade away without emotions and bang...


Do not let others experiences cloud judgment.. the markets are an intensely personal thing in that we choose which particular way to trade that suits our style.. it is dangerous to seek generalizations because everyone is so absolutely unique...

Of course he can reach his target.. but Im sure he is astute enough to know he may go through a period of flat-lining or even losing for a while.. thats where his initial concentration should be... minimizing loss of course.... are you sure your "friend" isnt actually you?

Paul

Why does everyone assume it's the OP and not a "friend"?

I can vouch for the OP and guarantee he has no qualms about asking questions for himself. Also why would he ask for himself and then repeatedly say basically that he thinks his friends strat is not all that sound leverage wise?

The OP to my knowledge has never even traded futures and does well with stocks exclusively.

PS. I think everyone saying it's not possible either has a poor strat trading off emotion and no setups or just like to discourage people and perpetrate fear. 30K to be reasonable to me should trade maybe 3 contracts. I'm a noob to futures as the OP knows, but in my experience the ES will rape your friend more than likely. I'd start with the YM as it's less per tick and though it has less liquidity would easily support his equity levels with less slippage.

If he dives in on 5+ contracts on the ES he will probably suffer a HUGE drawdown. He should paper trade his strat on a Ninja demo or OEC as they seem to account for FIFO (first in first out) fairly well. It's not a totally legit paper fill but I think it's close enough.

And I think with a winning set of setups and emotion control his target is VERY reasonable. Naysayers will say that I'm clouded or nuts to say this since I haven't done it. My response is NOT YET. Now realize I don't think one can just start with $30k and grow equity and "take over the markets". As long as you remove your gains/salary and exercise correct position sizing it's pretty safe.

(For the record I've only been in the market 11 months. 9 of which was swing trading stocks and the last 2 being papertrading the YM to perfect my strat. On paper I'm profitable but still have some kinks to work out till I go live. Once I stopped hearing all the "you need 2 million to make it" bull$hit I've been doing even better )

 

[Paulds11]

Now this is what I mean about replies.. its a great contribution, valid points, no personal attacks and fun and interesting to read... thats how it should be

thank you mcichocki

I agree with just about all the sentiment in your answer..

I too trade the ES and use between 1 and 4 contracts max at a time. I have come to enjoy one particular type of play and set up that uses MACD crosses on mainly shorts.. I got rid of all the other impulse trades and market chasing trades and BANG.. Ive stopped loosing wads of money !!!!!!

Its a tough bitter road but necessary.. and anyone who denies that is living a fantasy IMO.

Also I agree about the money issue. It is utter nonsense to buy into the camp that says you need 100K to make it. If you cant demonstrate discipline and trade only your specific plan with $6000 or enough for two contracts but trading one contract at a time.. you aint gonna do with $100K.. no way

great post thank you for your balanced contribution..

Paul

 

[rcanfiel]

Quote from Paulds11:

WHO THE F@;/ oops, attack/bad word!! DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? MISSED THE WARNING SIGNS? THIS DUDE NEEDS ENCOURAGEMENT TO LEARN THATS WHAT THE RAH RAH IS ABOUT OR ARE YOU SAYING HE IS FINISHED..

Read the last post again. If he trades like this, he will face Risk of Ruin. Do you know what this is?

WHERE ARE YOU GOING WITH THIS? WHAT IS YOUR CONTRIBUTION HERE EXACTLY.. DO WE REALLY WANT THIS TYPE OF ATTACK AND WASTEFUL COMMENT THAT SERVES TO DO WHAT? TELL EVERYONE YOU KNOW HOW IT IS? COME AGAIN RCANFEL

Read the last post again. If he trades like this, he will face Risk of Ruin. Do you know what this is?

YOU SAID YOU DOUBT I AM EARNING XYZ.. WHY HAVE YOU BROUGHT ME INTO THIS? THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO MAKE MONEY FROM THE MARKETS, NOT FEW YOU STUPID oops, attack/bad word!! IDIOT oops, attack/bad word!!..

NEARLY EVERYONE IS ABLE TO EXTRACT THOUDSANDS OF POUNDS FROM THE UTTERLY LIQUID MASSIVE MARKETS... THIS IS A FACT

Are you sure you have ever traded before???

FEW PEOPLE MAKE MONEY? REALLY? NO.. MANY PEOPLE MAKE MONEY

Well, at least you dropped it from "Many Many"


WHAT MATTERS IS THE RELATIVE PROPORTION OF WINS TO LOSSES YOU DOOFUS oops, attack/bad word!! AND THAT IS WHAT YOU HAVE NOT GRASPED WITH YOUR BANAL oops, attack/bad word!! AND MISPLACED CONDESCENSION.

Proportion of Wins to losses? I hope you don't mean win percentage. We know how meangingless that is. Don'y you? lol

HERE WE GO AGAIN.. THE SAME SILLY REPLIES

You have no idea how uneducated you come across as

FROM A DOOFUS oops, attack/bad word!! WHO CHOOSES TO SHOOT DOWN THE OPINION OF OTHERS WITHOUT CLARIFICATION, CLASS OR RESTRAINT IN THE KNOWLEDGE THAT ANYONE ELSE ACTUALLY MAY HAVE A POINT OF NOTE. ALL THIS FROM A GUY WHO HAS THE AUDACITY TO:

You have no idea how uneducated you come across as

1.REPEATEDLY CONDEMN A PERSON OFFERING A SERVICE AND YET VOCIFEROUSLY FOLLOW AND ANALYSE THAT SAME PERSONS DAILY CALLS..WHAT AN OXYMORONIC THING TO DO

We are back to Oscar again. You just love to defend him. That you are Oscar or shill for him is strongly obvious

2. FROM A PERSON WHO ATTACKS WITHOUT MERIT OR CLARITY OF THOUGHT, WHO SHOOTS FROM THE HIP AND DISPLAYS UNFOUNDED ARROGANCE WITH PEOPLE SEEMINGLY HUMBLE DIRECT AND HONEST..AND ALL WITHOUT ACTUALLY ADDING ANYTHING OF VALUE..

An excellent summarization of almost everything you say

IAM STRUGGLING TO FIND ANY ENCOURAGEMENT IN ANY OF YOUR POSTS YOU VITRIOLIC SELF ABSORBED oops, attack/bad word!! NUMPTY RED NECK oops, attack/bad word!! WITH A CHIP ON HIS SHOULDERS
3. ALL THIS FROM SOMEONE WHO HAS ARGUED WITH PASSION THAT TECHNICAL ANALYSIS DOESNT WORK.. & YOU STILL WANT US TO TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY? YOU THINK YOUR COMMENT HAS VALUE? OHH REALLY?... COME AGAIN..

Great that you support TA. Offer counter-evidence

4. WE HAVE COME TO DISCOVER THAT YOU ABOUT THESE BOARDS TRYING TO ACTUALLY SELL SOMETHING OR PROMOTE SOMETHING YOURSELF..THAT EXPLAINS A LOT ABOUT YOU AND YOUR MOTIVES

I think this is what Trader0062 said before. That you are him or an Oscar employee is strongly obvious

AND YET AGAIN YOU COME HERE AND MISS THE POINT WITH YOUR OVERTLY BASIC INTERPRETATION OF MY WORDS SEEKING PERSONAL LEVERAGE AND MISSING THE POINT OF THESE BOARDS WHICH IS UNDERSTANDING AND BALANCED CONTRIBUTION NOT BROW BEATING, BELLY ACHING AND SELF PROMOTION

You encourage someone to jump in front of a train. I caution them to think before acting. No matter how you slice it, it is believed most people lose their trading capital. Promoting 300% annually as quite doable, is a foolhardy thing

PEOPLE ARE SICK OF YOUR ATTTITUDE, YOUR A JERK, oops, attack/bad word!! LOOK AT YOURSELF..

GO ON THEN LETS HEAR YOUR SILLY oops, attack/bad word!! REPOST.. YOUR SELF AGGRANDIZING oops, attack/bad word!! ONE LINER.. GIVE US YOUR BEST QUOTES OF PLAGARISED oops, attack/bad word!! WORD OF WISDOM WE ALL KNOW IS USED TO ELEVATE YOUR OWN FEELINGS OF SELF IMPORTANCE NOT TO PROVIDE AN AID FOR ANYONE OR INDEED THIS GUY WHO HAS COME HEAR LOOKING FOR HELP AND UNDERSTANDING..

YOUR BORE US TO DEATH

*sigh.* I wish you read your own words. You write like words just jump into your head and you put them down.