Making a living with a $30K account

Quote from l2tradr:

Hi,

A friend of mine is wondering if one can make a living trading the YM or the ES with a $30K account. He's been trading stocks for 5 years, with approximately 60% yearly returns (day-trading, no margin). Great money management in place, with very low drawdowns over this period.

He wants to trade mini futures for a living (currently works in the evenings). Is it possible for him to make a living with a 30K account? He has more money but wants to trade only 10 contracts intra-day.

Do you guys think that it's enough capital to achieve this goal? His living expenses are less than $2K a month and he could always go back to work if things don't work out.

Any advice for him? My opinion is that it would be very difficult to do it, but he insists that he can.

Thanks

As you have probably noticed, ET is seperated into two camps. There are the people who have "done it" and the people who tried, didn't, and now believe it's not possible. For whatever reason, the second group likes to try to convince the first group what they have done is not possible. Often.

Jack has incessantly tried to get people to consider the market's potential. In whatever instrument you trade, calculate how much money changed hands on whatever day. Another way of doing this is Jack's "crayola test" (I wonder how many people have ever actually done this... anyone???) and start at the beginning of the day, trace the path price takes, and figure out how much you'd make per contract for the day.

This is what's possible. Now, what is humanly possible? Your only job is to clear out all the crap that prevents you from getting to that place.

There are some people who should not be listened to here. Some lines that automatically turn off a poster for me are:

"If you could make [blank] percent a day (fill in the blanks), you would own the world in x amount of time". Isn't it obvious that anyone who says this has never been profitable??

The original question was "Is this enough capital to achieve his goal?" There is only one answer. Of course it is. There are literally thousands of ways he could turn that into a fortune in a very short amount of time, in plenty of different intruments. The question isn't "does he have enough money", the question is "does he have enough knowledge".

TNG
 
How does a person, any person, demonstrate mastery ? Simple: by being tested.

I am with jack, and jimmy, and thenewguy along with the rest of those who believe that the op's friend must simply try. Because success belongs to those who do, and because putting the thing into motion is the only way to truly find out.

The risk is there, but so is the return. I have traded futures for almost 17 years. When I started, everyone i know proffered unsolicited advice about my likely future. I would fail because: insert your reason here. I am sure some of them were valid, yet, I am still here, and would not do anything else.

I wish your friend success ... I am quite sure he already has sufficient numbers of people explaining with great wisdom all the reasons why it cannot be done.

:)

-bazi
 
"Is it possible for him to make a living with a 30K account?"

The above was the question. Almost anything is possible but IMHO, this is not enough money. I couldn't put a number on it but I would say that the probability of losing the 30K is much greater than the probability of his making a living with the 30K.

Now, whether or not he should try is a different issue.

Joe.
 
Quote from thenewguy:

As you have probably noticed, ET is seperated into two camps. There are the people who have "done it"

That is not the main problem. It is people who ignore major statistics like "Risk of Ruin" and likelihood and reality. This population of people includes a huge percentage of people who have never done it but claimed they did, outright fabricators, those who have done it for a few months and luck has shone on them, etc.

and the people who tried, didn't, and now believe it's not possible. For whatever reason, the second group likes to try to convince the first group what they have done is not possible. Often.

While the first group (mainly) merrily bounces along in their fantasy.

Question, if it were this easy to make 300% a year, how come the investment banks with their reams of money don't have their high-placed traders working it in the liquid markets like ES ???

Question, if it were this easy to make 300% a year, how come vendors on Collective2, FuturesTruth, TimerTrac, Timer Digest, Hulbert, and other tracking services never manage to do this for any length of time?

How come in the contests like World Cup Advisor, you don't see the same gurus making 300% a year?

Question, if it were this easy to make 300% a year, how come CTAs in annual reports, by and large, struggle to stay above the zero line? How come so few make over 30-40%? How come large institutions that outperform the markets annual 7-10% return are heralded as geniuses? Surely trading the mega-liquid markets like TBonds, Eurodollars, Crude, S&P, etc. this would be doable for the Hedge Funds with less than $10 million under management???????????????????????????????


Jack has incessantly tried to get people to consider the market's potential.

Jack has incessantly spun reams of paperwork, trying to convince others who will listen, that he has "the Answer." However, any attempt to show rock-hard proof cause him to merrily skip away.

If something REALLY works, most people will defend it with evidence. Jack becomes deaf and blind when challenged for TRUTH. He talks at length about his acumen, and high-placed friends, etc.


In whatever instrument you trade, calculate how much money changed hands on whatever day. Another way of doing this is Jack's "crayola test" (I wonder how many people have ever actually done this... anyone???) and start at the beginning of the day, trace the path price takes, and figure out how much you'd make per contract for the day.

This is what's possible.

This is irrelevant. If I had tomorrow's newspaper, imagine how much money I could make. If I could go back in time and pick up some Honus Wagner cards, Microsoft stock when it was just a small company, $20 gold pieces fresh from the mint, I would be wealthy. Idle speculation has no value.

Now, what is humanly possible? Your only job is to clear out all the crap that prevents you from getting to that place.

There are some people who should not be listened to here.

Yes. Hershey lemmings who ignore reality is a good start.

The original question was "Is this enough capital to achieve his goal?" There is only one answer. Of course it is. There are literally thousands of ways he could turn that into a fortune in a very short amount of time, in plenty of different intruments.

As they say, the best way to make a small fortune in the futures market is to start with a large one.

The question isn't "does he have enough money", the question is "does he have enough knowledge".

This isn't a Teletubbies episode, like "Inkie Winkie milks the cow". It is about trading, and not about Tony Robbins motivational speeches. The market has little mercy for those who are ready to be shorn...

 
I agree with the above. Making 60-100m per year in income starting with 30m ain't happening. The problem is the objective: The income. Ain't happening.

I'll gladly give 30m to a good trader who will generate 60-100m per year for me in income! LOL!! I don't even care how much leverage he/she wants to use. It's the fact that if they can get me a 300%+ return on my 30m by the end of a year's trading with them, I'd do 30m in a New York minute! Fact is, it ain't gonna happen. Not CONSISTENTLY...
 
Quote from rcanfiel:


The reality is that each of these questions has a very logical answer. You'll probably never know them until you set foot in a place that makes money and you ask them how they do it.

You're not going to believe me though, and that's ok with me.

One thing that I did find fascinating, however, is your approach to my comment about what the market offers. Can you not see the difference in what I was talking about and your reply? I'm talking about what is actually there, every single day, day in and day out. Look at the screen man! This is not the teletubbies hour, you are correct. All I did was try to get you to consider the potential, and you come back with talk about going forward in time, and going back in time...

Why on earth would any trader not start out by thinking "ok, what is actually out there for me to take?". By taking your approach you are automatcially limiting yourself before you have even started.

So if you don't consider what is theoretically possible, then what DO you use as a benchmark? Anything over 0 is a great day?

I wish you the best of luck sir, I don't understand how anyone with your outlook on the markets can be successful.

TNG
 
Quote from dwitherell:

I agree with the above. Making 60-100m per year in income starting with 30m ain't happening. The problem is the objective: The income. Ain't happening.

I'll gladly give 30m to a good trader who will generate 60-100m per year for me in income! LOL!! I don't even care how much leverage he/she wants to use. It's the fact that if they can get me a 300%+ return on my 30m by the end of a year's trading with them, I'd do 30m in a New York minute! Fact is, it ain't gonna happen. Not CONSISTENTLY...

Why would anyone who could make 300% a year need 30k from you?

TNG
 
Quote from jack hershey:

You raise some very interesting questions.

The answers are intriguing as well.

Good luck.

It mostly has to do with poor IT.

You give away too much... :D

TNG
 
Here is the answer mathematically speaking:

It is possible, supposed his strategy works the same with futures. Of course we don't know how much he needs to make a leaving, thus let's suppose he is a single guy and can live on 50K a year...

So the question is, can he make 50K starting with 30K if he was able to make 60% gains with stocks? Of course with futures everything is about leverage, so if he chooses the correct leverage, he can replicate the 60% stock return. It is basicly 140% on his starting account, but that just means he needs to use more leverage....

Let's go further:

50K (goal) / 250 (trading days) = 200$ per day

If he is using 4 cars, he only need to do the proverbal 1 ES per day.
Let's say he is not that good, so he could use 8 cars and still not be overleveraged and he only has to make 1/2 ES per day....
 
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