Major Players in the History of the Christian Church
- Thread starter expiated
- Start date
Speaking of “major players” in the history of the Church, is the Holy Spirit a person?
Some people view the Holy Spirit as nothing more than a manifestation of God’s power. But in looking at verses like John 15:26, for example, one finds Jesus saying things like… “But I will send you the Comforter—the Holy Spirit—the source of all truth. He will come to you from the Father and will tell you all about me.”
In John 14 through 16 you have a series of verses like the above—that speak of the Father sending the Son, and the Son sending the Spirit in very distinct ways. For example, in John 14:26, Jesus says, “The Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to remembrance all that I have said to you.”
So, there are these verses where you have a distinct Father, Son and Spirit…where the Spirit is a teacher or a guide. Moreover, in Isaiah 63 and in Ephesians 4, the Spirit can be grieved (speaking of His personality). And in Acts 5, you can lie to the Holy Spirit. In Hebrews 9, the Holy Spirit is spoken of as eternal. And then there is 1 Corinthians 12, which mentions “one God, one Lord, one Spirit.”
What’s more, in 2 Corinthians 13:14, you have Paul speaking of the love of God, the grace of the Lord Jesus, and the fellowship of the Spirit. Of course, fellowship is communion…it’s relationship. These are just some of many verses that speak of the Spirit independently as well as in conjunction with the Father and the Son, and that clearly indicate the personhood of the Spirit.
Yet, one might wonder, “If the Holy Spirit is a person, why doesn’t the Bible mention a throne for the Him when it describes a throne for the Father and a throne for the Son in the 3rd and 22nd chapters of Revelation? However, one of the main roles of the Holy Spirit is to draw attention to the Son to the glory of the Father. That’s His function—it is not seeking to have worship or glorification focused in His direction. Scripture itself tells us this.
Some people view the Holy Spirit as nothing more than a manifestation of God’s power. But in looking at verses like John 15:26, for example, one finds Jesus saying things like… “But I will send you the Comforter—the Holy Spirit—the source of all truth. He will come to you from the Father and will tell you all about me.”
In John 14 through 16 you have a series of verses like the above—that speak of the Father sending the Son, and the Son sending the Spirit in very distinct ways. For example, in John 14:26, Jesus says, “The Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to remembrance all that I have said to you.”
So, there are these verses where you have a distinct Father, Son and Spirit…where the Spirit is a teacher or a guide. Moreover, in Isaiah 63 and in Ephesians 4, the Spirit can be grieved (speaking of His personality). And in Acts 5, you can lie to the Holy Spirit. In Hebrews 9, the Holy Spirit is spoken of as eternal. And then there is 1 Corinthians 12, which mentions “one God, one Lord, one Spirit.”
What’s more, in 2 Corinthians 13:14, you have Paul speaking of the love of God, the grace of the Lord Jesus, and the fellowship of the Spirit. Of course, fellowship is communion…it’s relationship. These are just some of many verses that speak of the Spirit independently as well as in conjunction with the Father and the Son, and that clearly indicate the personhood of the Spirit.
Yet, one might wonder, “If the Holy Spirit is a person, why doesn’t the Bible mention a throne for the Him when it describes a throne for the Father and a throne for the Son in the 3rd and 22nd chapters of Revelation? However, one of the main roles of the Holy Spirit is to draw attention to the Son to the glory of the Father. That’s His function—it is not seeking to have worship or glorification focused in His direction. Scripture itself tells us this.
>>>...Father>Son>Father>Son>Father>Son>Creator>Created>Creator>Created>>>...
V
V
"Prodigal Son"
In the diagram above, you see a continual constant lineage of divine creation. Each creation is a Being, identical to it's creator. For example, if the creator was male, the created would also be male. However, the divine nature is not any gender as there are not different genders in the divine nature. As each of the created beings creates, it become a "creator" and/or "father" in it's own right, making it equal to it's own creator/father/originator. Notice also that each creator creates ONLY ONE creation. This is what it means "his only son". There is no need for multiple "sons" as each creation is perfect and not different from it's creator. There is only a desire to SHARE one's wealth by creating a being, and giving that being ALL that belongs to the creator.
However, an anomaly appears in the lineage when one of the "son"('s) makes a son that is not like itself. This would be the proverbial "prodigal son". Unlike claims made for it, the prodigal son is NOT "made in the image of" it's creator. More like, it is everything that is opposite of it's creator. Thus, the prodigal son does not just have one son, but "many" sons. As such, the "prodigal son" is the father of the human race.
This is a problem.
The "Son" which makes (notice the term "make" rather than "create") a son that is different from himself/itself has gone astray, and has deviated from the divine nature, which only creates one "Son" that is given equality to it's Creator/Father in every way except the one way that is impossible to be equal: A son cannot be it's own father. In this way, and only this way, is any given son different from it's father. However, when each son, in turn gives it's life to yet another creation, that son in turn become a father. In this way, the divine nature is so equal in nature that it is counted as ONE.
The "Holy Spirit" is a basic description of the entity/being whose purpose it is to rectify the path of the errant "son" by teaching and guiding. By turning the prodigal son around, it brings it back "home" to its true self, to continue it's natural path in the divine nature: to create one Son that is given EVERYTHING that also belongs to itself (to the divine godhood).
Thus, it is the Holy Spirit which is the "savior" of the divine "son" that has gone astray, having "made" itself into the human race.
As such, salvation is for the errant "Son", NOT THE HUMAN RACE.
This is why i have often said, "salvation is for Christ". It's why, when speaking through Jesus, the Holy Spirit will say things like, "Whoever lays down his life for MY SAKE, will gain it again. But whoever holds on to his life will lose it.".
Salvation is for the restoration of the natural order of divine nature. Thus, the prodigal son come's "home", so-to-speak. Mankind, as a product of the prodigal son's wandering away from home, is not saved.
Since the prodigal son is an anomaly to the natural order of divine creation, the Holy Spirit, whose purpose it is to "save" the prodigal son by bringing it home, is also a kind of anomaly. It was "created", by a Father-Son alliance, to rectify the anomaly in the Son's mind. As such, the Holy Spirit is created in the divine nature, being equal to it's own progenitors, with the one exception that it was created with a purpose: to heal the errant anomaly (the division) in the Son's mind.
The anomaly may be described as a SPLIT MIND. One side of the mind remains at home, enjoying the divine nature bestowed upon it (knowing everything) while the split (wandering) mind wanders off into a world of it's own, into it's own "reality", making shit up as it goes (imagination). This errant mind commands the entire domain of imagination and "faith". By it's faith, it "makes" (it does not really create anything) and thus, manufactures an NEW SELF, quite different from it's original Self.
The Holy Spirit saves the original Self from the neo (new) "self", which manifests as an entire universe based on particle physics, producing shapes and sizes of "things". A world based on particle physics gives rise to the "material world" of seemingly solid objects like planets and people not to mention their money. This world is not "holy" in any way whatsoever. Nor is it "spiritual".
The "holy" and "spiritual" saves what is also "holy" and "spiritual" from what is not at all holy nor spiritual. This is the purpose of the "Holy Spirit".
Salvation is more of a subtraction process: simply subtracting what the split mind makes (the entire material world built on faith/imagination). When salvation is complete, the material world returns the the null-and-void ("dust") from which it came: it disappears.
Once the material world disappears, the original "Son" is restored to it's divine nature, being 100% Spirit and/or Mind. It then resumes it's natural trajectory, being the "Father" of it's own "Only Son" (it's own creation).
Salvation is characterized by single-mindedness. This is what is "holy". Not the forked-tonged doubled-minded mankind. Holy also speaks of "whole" as in "holistic", rather than divided and/or broken. It speaks of a whole loaf of bread (using a familiar parable), not a broken loaf of bread that is distributed for the "many". Thus holistic restoration is the purpose of the "holy" Spirit. It is Spirit, like all Spirit in the divine nature, with a mission to make whole what was broken and distributed (gather up the pieces) through a particle physics based world.
Last edited:
Addendum to the narrative above:
The Holy Spirit is spirit. Spirit is better described as a living being rather than a person. Personhood better describes the proverbial "prodigal son" which is the archetype for all "human being"(s).
The "Son of God" is also spirit and is as holy as the "Holy Spirit". The "Father" is also spirit and holy. Holy mainly denotes oneness, without any distinction of differences. Distinctions and differences are an aspect of imagination and represent "unclean" compromises in an otherwise unified Mind.
The distinction here is mostly about purpose...about why the "Holy Spirit" was created in the first place. Like all of divine creation it was created EQUAL to all other living beings in the divine godhood. So it is "one" with the Father and the Son...but likewise it is also one with every Father and every Son in the divine to to godhood, of which there are an uncountable number...uncountable because they are all the same, hence "one". This oneness insures the divine goodhood remains perfect.
However, of the uncountable number of "fathers" and "sons" (again, there are no genders or gender differences in the divine godhood) there is an anomaly regarding one of these father/son pairs that requires a third party, so-to-speak, to repair....to insure the perfection of the divine godhood remains unchanged.
As the anomaly is first conceived so also was the Holy Spirit conceived in an alliance between the Father/Son pair in question to guard the pair's perfection by finding a way to repair potential damage from the anomaly rising in the mind of the "Son" in question.
Personhood, being a distinctive difference, is a concept that deviates from divine perfection and poses potential unrecoverable destruction. The Holy Spirit insures the Son can recover from that potential destruction. In this capacity, with this purpose, the Holy Spirit "saves" the Son from potential unrecoverable destruction as it devotes a portion of its mind capacity (it's attention ) to the concept of personhood.
For arguments sake, let's say 1/3 of the Son's mental power is given to the exploration of the concept of personhood. As the mind focuses attention on the concept of personhood, the "Son" is TRANSFORMED into the thing(s) it thinks about, becoming the proverbial "prodigal son" (small "s"). The prodigal son is the archetype for mankind, but is also archetype for every other species of critter, including spiders and snakes. Under this archetype, the "Son of God" becomes the "son of man", but also son of dog. The Holy Spirit saves 1/3 of the Son of God's mind from getting permanently lost, hence destroyed, as it is occupied (and captivated) with this transformation. Once the mind becomes these things/persons it cannot unbecome them without the help of the Holy Spirit. Meanwhile, even though 2/3 of the Son's mind remains occupied (abides with) it's original perfection in Reality (capital "R") it's perfection is in jeopardy as long as it's Mind (capital "M") is split (bifurcated , compromised). So, the Holy Spirit is saving the Son by saving its Mind from its own machinations (imaginations).
The Holy Spirit bridges the otherwise uncrossable gap/divide/separation between the sectors of the Son's mind, going between completely different worlds, worlds having really nothing in common (incompatible, unable to ccoexist. The "world" that is made up by the 1/3 of the Son's Mind is so different from Reality that there would be no way to communicate between them. Thus, the communication between the Father/Son pair would be in jeopardy if the concept of personhood (as well spiderhood) became more than a fleeting thought that came and went with a laugh. The Holy Spirit insures the continuity of divine communication and perfection.
The Holy Spirit does things for the Son that the Father cannot do for the Son without compromising the perfection (and oneness) of both. For one thing, the Father cannot doubt the Son's perfection. The Father cannot give what is going on in 1/3 of the Son's Mind any credence by giving it any acknowledgement at all. Any acknowledgement would lend it a "reality" it does not deserve. Indeed, if it gained any "reality" from the Father, it might become permanent, and so, permanently destroy the divine godhood. And so, the Father does not even "know" what the hell is going on in 1/3 of the Son's Mind. That 1/3 is effectively PRIVATE, as in: it abides in its own little world. This is contrary to the normal order of divine creation in which each new "Son" is a PUBLIC UNIVERSE where each "Son" is Reality (capital "R") itSelf. By contrast, the private universe is also a kind of "self" that pretends to be "reality" (small "r"). This is an *anti-self* and/or the proverbial "anti-christ" and/or an *alter ego*.
In light of the above narrative , the Holy Spirit saves the Son from a FALSE PERCEPTION OF ITS SELF...by teaching the false self about the True Self. To the extent that the false self has the capacity to CEASE AND DESIST, the True Self can be saved. To be able to teach, the Holy Spirit must enter (or seem to enter) the domain of the 1/3 of the Son's Mind as it is occupied (focused) on its conceptual (theoretical ) archetypes , as well all the fine details descending frim the archetypes . The more it is occupied with such concepts (perceptions about S/self) the more it's attention is CAPTIVATED by the details of the concepts . In this way the "anti-christ" takes "posession" of the Son's Mind capacity as if it were some kind of demon...as if it were the devil itself. The conditions are such that the private world becomes a kind of "hell". The Holy Spirit , upon invitation, crashes the gates of this hell, and saves the Son of God from it.
Given the above narrative, the Holy Spirit is the most "major player" in the salvation saga. Because of Jesus' invitation, the Holy Spirit got permission to crash the gates of hell and establish a prevailing position (cannot be thrown out). Here-to-for, this private world had a sign on it saying "Private, Keep Out, No Trespassing". Having opened the door to the Holy Spirit, Jesus insured that is no longer the case, and the light of knowledge will continue to spread in what was a very dark place (having no knowledge of the True Self). And so, Jesus is a "major player". But don't be confused. The Holy Spirit is the "Savior", not Jesus. The Holy Spirit "saved" Jesus not by saving Jesus, but by teaching Jesus about his True Self (the "Son of God") until Jesus was ready and willing to CEASE AND DESIST his position within the realm of the anti-christ (anti-divine-S/self). By ceasing and desisting, Jesus "lay down his life" FOR CHRIST'S SAKE (not for mankind) and in so doing , resumed his life as his True Self ("Christ"). In this way, Jesus showed the way for all to follow. But it was the Holy Spirit that taught him what he needed to know, restoring to him his power along the way.
The 1/3 of the Son's Mind spoken of above (for arguments sake) has been further split off (split up) into comparments, each in its own little private world. Thus, as the 1/3 of the mind was begotten, so it begets after its own kind. The mind is so fragmented that, without the Holy Spirit, it could never be restored to unification with the True Self. Its important to understand that Jesus was the first ("first fruits ") to be restored. (as such, he is leading the way out, following the Holy Spirit), implying that each of the fragments of the mind must be restored in similar fashion, in its own time, from wherever it is positioned in the private world of 1/3 of the Son of God's Mind. When all the fragments are gathered together and restored to the 2/3 of the Mind of Christ, then salvation is complete with the restoration of ONENESS (singlemindedness) within the divine godhood.
After salvation the Holy Spirit's mission (purpose, reason for existence) is complete, but remains in the divine godhood as an equal member, enjoying its benefits. There is no reason to count the uncountable thrones in the divine godhood as each one is a King among Kings in a domain devoid of hierarchy. Hierarchy was a concept that pertained only in the private world which is now gone (speaking of its destiny). Having gone, it's very existence comes into question. It could even be said IT NEVER HAPPENED, never rising above/ beyond conceptual (theoretical). In this frame, the "Son of God" is indeed "without sin", having been saved from its own false perceptions about Reality (about its S/self).
Last edited:
Have you read "The First 300 Years of Christianity"? Almost all the charities, hospitals and orphanages were stated by the Christians. Keep up the good work!
Widespread active academic education and learning started in America despite Christian religions, not because of them.
The main purpose of early Christian education in the U.S. (Harvard etc..) was to teach children of wealthy families how to read the bible and align themselves with puritan beliefs.
Academic teaching which enabled children an opportunity to reach their full potential became available in the 1900s thanks initially to the earlier work of John Dewey, whose premise was to promote 'social educational reforms for all without recourse to religion'.
Christianity will hijack anything, including education and charity to further its existence and to use those things as tools for generating wealth.
"A detailed breakdown of the highest earners at the largest 150 charities by income shows that in the “faith organizations and religion” section, top of the list are the Church Commissioners – managers of the Church of England’s extensive land and property portfolio. They paid their highest earner £334,000, although this included a long-term performance payment of £91,000.
Second on the list are the Daughters of the Cross of Liège, who paid one individual between £190,000 and £200,000. The order, whose latest accounts show it had a turnover of £65 million, runs a hospital, a care home, a hospice and a center for epilepsy."
The Tablet. International Catholic News Weekly
Subscribe to The Tablet for just $10 for 30 days.
(Christianity never misses an opportunity to make a buck!)Second on the list are the Daughters of the Cross of Liège, who paid one individual between £190,000 and £200,000. The order, whose latest accounts show it had a turnover of £65 million, runs a hospital, a care home, a hospice and a center for epilepsy."
The Tablet. International Catholic News Weekly
Subscribe to The Tablet for just $10 for 30 days.
%%
I like king David; actually he is mentioned quite a bit in new testament/psalms/psalms 133...……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….[if your bible does not mention psalm of david on psalm 133;; turn around = get another Bible
.I feel more of a kinship with his pal Jonathan, along with Joseph, the son of Israel (Jacob).