Magic and the "subconscious"

art bell is a nut case. as for the book i liked this review. it sounds like another book to help religious people cling to their superstitions.

8 of 41 people found the following review helpful:

Garbage, August 25, 2005
Reviewer: WhoAllzebub "Jeff" (Canada) - See all my reviews
People who believe this book is about true events are missing something. If the devil wants to steal your soul then why would he make his existence more obvious. Many reviewers are happy that this book will increase faith in God and Jesus. Do they think that the devil is so stupid as to help their cause by exposing himself just so he can make people act funny? Would it not make much more sense for the devil to let people continue on their way until the supposed judgement day when Jesus will hand these people over to him on a platter. The author must well understand that many Christians are desperate for a sign even if it is from the opposing team. Religious people may tend to embrace any book which gives evidence to their beliefs. If it were so simple then demonology would be a science. The Catholic church is desperate to attract young people back to the church. Religion has always used fear of the devil and death as a way to sway people. It is a very powerful force and the strongly favourable reviews below are testament to this fact. Don't waste your time and your life fearing a phantom.
How does the author get so much detail? He made it up. It's hard to miss any small point in a story when all you have to do is search your imagination for the answer. It should be a crime to write fiction and claim it is fact.
You can sleep easy folks. This is obviously religious propaganda disguised as a factual account. Unfortunately, many who read this review will think I am speaking on behalf of the devil. Sad really.

Quote from BVM88:

Sorry paperboy, I just saw your post. With the exception of recent days I do not visit ET that often, but I’m surprised you made the post less than a month ago – it feels like 3 months when I posted to this thread, and I’m amazed the thread even lasted longer than a few days. Malachi Martin to answer your question was a Jesuit priest and well known exorcist. You can download the interview from most peer to peer networks; that is, if you are interested or you have not already done so. He also had a couple of interesting talks with Major Ed Dames who is a remote viewer that worked for the military. Personally, I believe that all religions are the greatest obstacle to the truth, but Malachi Martin had an unadulterated honesty about him that one rarely sees today. I came across that interview some time after he passed away so regretfully I will never have an opportunity to ask him the questions that I would have liked.

As for the rest of you who are so certain about the lack of a devil or another world to our own (spiritually speaking) you may consider getting hold of that 5 hour interview he did with Art Bell in 1996 as well, or read his book http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/00...104-1639534-9707128?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

I am sure he will water down your beliefs a little at least.
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Quote from vhehn:

art bell is a nut case. as for the book i liked this review. it sounds like another book to help religious people cling to their superstitions.

8 of 41 people found the following review helpful:
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I do not know much about Art Bell at all, so did not say anything about him. As for the review that you highlighted, you must have pissed a lot of money up against the wall over the years on dud books if you follow reviews. You obviously carefully sifted through the reviews and selected one that is in keeping with your beliefs. Did you notice however that only 8 out of 41 people found that review helpful, so you must be the 9th I take it? The review is not applicable to me BTW because as I have already mentioned I firmly believe that all religions are the greatest obstacle to the truth (and that is one reason why I like Malachi Martin: because he was honest enough to bag his own church).
If you had said that you have listen to the 1996 Malachi Martin interview and found it to be garbage, and said why you thought so, then I would have respected that and thanked you for your opinion, but you did none of that. So what can I say to you? I think Mark Douglas put it best in one of his books when he said something like: there is one principle that is guaranteed to keep one in perpetual ignorance and that is contempt prior to investigation.
If anyone has the exact quote can you please post it here as I cannot recall which book I saw it in and would really like to make note of it.
 
Quote from JohnnyK:

Maybe that's why I feel better after jogging.

JohnnyK
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Sure, oxygenating your system through jogging as you do would be a great way of clearing your mind and lifting your spirit.
 
Extraordinary Claims Demand
Extraordinary Proof

i sat for 50 years in the pews of churches listening to preachers try to convince me that the devil exists. why would another book by some religious nut convince me now?
Quote from BVM88:

I do not know much about Art Bell at all, so did not say anything about him. As for the review that you highlighted, you must have pissed a lot of money up against the wall over the years on dud books if you follow reviews. You obviously carefully sifted through the reviews and selected one that is in keeping with your beliefs. Did you notice however that only 8 out of 41 people found that review helpful, so you must be the 9th I take it? The review is not applicable to me BTW because as I have already mentioned I firmly believe that all religions are the greatest obstacle to the truth (and that is one reason why I like Malachi Martin: because he was honest enough to bag his own church).
If you had said that you have listen to the 1996 Malachi Martin interview and found it to be garbage, and said why you thought so, then I would have respected that and thanked you for your opinion, but you did none of that. So what can I say to you? I think Mark Douglas put it best in one of his books when he said something like: there is one principle that is guaranteed to keep one in perpetual ignorance and that is contempt prior to investigation.
If anyone has the exact quote can you please post it here as I cannot recall which book I saw it in and would really like to make note of it.
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Quote from vhehn:

Extraordinary Claims Demand
Extraordinary Proof

i sat for 50 years in the pews of churches listening to preachers try to convince me that the devil exists. why would another book by some religious nut convince me now?
More...

Proof? If you wait for someone to knock on your door with all the proof that you need you will die like 99% of the people out there: with your eyes closed and in a state of anxiety.

To reiterate, I agree with your views on the church, and can also see now why you hold the views that you do. But at the end of the day you must make a distinction between the church as an institution and the original teachings that it has so successfully distorted.

I only suggested Malachi Martin to begin with because the earlier posters were looking at one aspect of the occult as if it were some game and I just wanted to point out to them that it is not.
In all sincerity, if we can put magic and the devil aside for the time being, I would suggest to anyone that is interested in exploring life at a deeper level to read Eckhart Tolle. Here is his first book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/15...103-3714431-4702252?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

I have personally found Tolle to give the clearest expression of the teachings of Christ, Buddha, Krishnamurti, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Ramana Maharshi and many others. He is definitely one person who has seen the truth as it is IMO, but please do not rely on my opinion or the opinion of others, look at it yourself with an open mind and heart.
 
Quote from vhehn:



i sat for 50 years in the pews of churches listening to preachers try to convince me that the devil exists. why would another book by some religious nut convince me now?
More...

Well... as Ronny Reagan used to say, if you throw one more straw
on the haypile maybe it will blow your mind into believing the Devil
is real and you will find yourself watching Pat Robertson the rest of
your life saying to yourself over and over: "I never thought the Devil
was real until I read that one last book". Now I know it's true.

Thank goodness Pat Robertson will save me from the Devil.

All I have to do is send him all my money...:p
 
Quote from BVM88:

Proof? If you wait for someone to knock on your door with all the proof that you need you will die like 99% of the people out there: with your eyes closed and in a state of anxiety.

To reiterate, I agree with your views on the church, and can also see now why you hold the views that you do. But at the end of the day you must make a distinction between the church as an institution and the original teachings that it has so successfully distorted.

I only suggested Malachi Martin to begin with because the earlier posters were looking at one aspect of the occult as if it were some game and I just wanted to point out to them that it is not.
In all sincerity, if we can put magic and the devil aside for the time being, I would suggest to anyone that is interested in exploring life at a deeper level to read Eckhart Tolle. Here is his first book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/15...103-3714431-4702252?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

I have personally found Tolle to give the clearest expression of the teachings of Christ, Buddha, Krishnamurti, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Ramana Maharshi and many others. He is definitely one person who has seen the truth as it is IMO, but please do not rely on my opinion or the opinion of others, look at it yourself with an open mind and heart.
More...
I took a quick look at the pages of your book available on the above website.
In fact he states that "The word God has become empty of meaning through thousands of years of misuse". Where does Tolle then get his knowledge, as he claims, about the teachings of Christ? This doesn't sound right at all.

A much more convincing statement is John's:

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. (John 1, 14-18)

Mumbling about 'proof' ain't going to change a iota to this for the thousands of years coming (if any).
 
Hi nononsense

Tolle’s books are not religious texts, nor does he say anything new to what others have said before him, he just gives a good set of pointers on approaching life that I found helpful, but you may not.
Having an intellectual discussion on his teachings is pointless, for it is up to you to find the answers within yourself; he just gives you some exercises and insight that may allow you to do so, that is all.
Here is the shortest of his interviews that I could find. If you find anything of interest in it then great, explore further, if not, that’s also great as far as I’m concerned, for you are the master of your own destiny and not I. Good luck.

Interview at Omega Institute / Fall 2003

I came to know Eckhart Tolle's work in stages; first via the printed words of his best-selling "The Power Of Now", then through his new book "Stillness Speaks" on CD, and finally in person at the Omega Institute in upstate New York. Each encounter brought me closer to the man's stillness and his wisdom, which I gauged by the stillness I felt within myself as I absorbed what he had to say.

Eckhart has a magical, elfin quality about him, and was dressed in a button-down cardigan and corduroy pants. He speaks very softly, but as we got into our conversation, he became quite animated and impassioned. Our hour went by rapidly, and neither one of us moved much from our spots on the sofa as the meeting went on.

JM: I'd like to talk about your transformation at age 29, where you say your personality was erased. Many people spend their lives trying to get something like that to happen, and here it happened to you at a young age. Can you talk a little bit about that?

ET: I was unhappy, depressed and anxious. I was not trying to become enlightened or anything like that. I was looking for some kind of answer to the dilemma of life, but I had been looking to the intellect for the answer; philosophy, religion and intellectual inspiration. The more I was looking on that level, the more unhappy I became. I reached a point where the phrase came into my head---and this is in the book "The Power Of Now"---"I can't live with myself any longer." That part of my self---that entity became so heavy and painful.

Suddenly I stepped back from myself, and it seemed to be two of me--- The "I", and this "self" that I cannot live with. Am I one or am I two? And that triggered me like a koan. It happened to me spontaneously. I looked at that sentence---"I can't live with myself". I had no intellectual answer. Who am I? Who is this self that I cannot live with? The answer came on a deeper level. I realized who I was.

When I'm speaking about it now, it becomes intellectualized because I'm using words, but that realization was beyond words. What "I" as consciousness had identified with was a very heavy mental and emotional form consisting of thought and accompanied by an energy field. At that moment the identification with that mind structure was withdrawn. It collapsed, and what remained was a spacious, peaceful consciousness. The identification was broken, and because of that, the mental/emotional structure---the psuedo self collapsed. My sense of identity broke down and was replaced by something that is very hard to put into words. Awareness. Consciousness. The words only came a few years later. I couldn't even talk about it. I had been anxious and depressed for years and suddenly I was deeply at peace.

JM: Do you think your transformation had less to do with achieving peace than letting go of the anxiousness and the worry?

ET: Yes. It wasn't really the achievement of anything; it was the realization by letting go of the identification. Something suddenly was there that actually had always been there but had been obscured continuously by identification with the heavy mind structure. As I came to work with other people, I realized every human being already has that dimension. No matter how anxious, depressed, disturbed and fearful they may be. That dimension is already in there, in every human being.

And so I came to understand why some masters sometimes say, "You are already enlightened." That dimension is already in there, it just needs to be discovered. Something needs to be let go of, something needs to be recognized.

JM: You know, when I walked in here, I had no idea who was going to be here. I'd read your books but had never seen you except in photographs. When you opened the door, it was like the sun was in this flat. I couldn't help but forget any reservations or shyness I may have had, and I almost burst out laughing.

ET: The reason for this is that in that act of meeting you, there were no thoughts about who you are or who I am. There was the openness of consciousness recognizing itself in another human being. And that is extremely joyful. And it's also joyful for someone who experiences that with someone else, because they feel more themselves in that moment.

JM: It's rare that you meet such a person. One thing that struck me while listening to your CD ("Stillness Speaks") on the way to our interview is that you say people make themselves miserable and in turn they make others miserable. It hadn't occurred to me that a person who habitually finds problems and "disasterizes" things affect everyone, the same as your smile affects me.

ET: Yes. It affects everybody else, it draws everybody else into their drama, and it's meant to do that. That happens both on a personal level and you also see it in corporations and politics. I sometimes meet people who work for corporations and some of them have said it's amazing that anything gets done at all considering how much energy is uselessly burned up through inner conflict in the organization. And it makes everyone's life miserable.
 
JM: Yes. I work for a lot of big media organizations, and I'm dumfounded at the wars I see when I walk into some of their offices. And these are people who are telling us what's going on in the world! When you see it on that level, it's easier to take the news a lot less seriously. It's just one person's point of view.

ET: Yes---and sometimes you find the same even in religious organizations. Because religion in many cases is really ideology. I'm not condemning all religions because that would not be correct, but to a large extent people have not freed themselves from their identification with their conditioned thinking. I know that at the core of each religion there is the truth, heavily obscured in some cases, but it's there. What happens when an organization arises is the amplification of the ego, the ego-ic mind structures.

JM: You say "all religions"---have you investigated religions? Judaism, Christianity, Islam?

ET: Yes, some more than others. Buddhism, Christianity, to some extent Hinduism. At the core, the truth shines through. Sometimes we have to look very deeply, but it's there.

JM: I was also struck by your interpretation of the cross as a symbol of "thy will be done".

ET: It's a strange dualistic symbol. Basically, it's a torture instrument. To me, Jesus stands for humanity. So this man is nailed to the torture instrument, totally helpless, in deep suffering. At that point comes total surrender to what is. "Not my will, but thy will be done." At that point, the symbolic significance of the cross is changed from being a torture instrument to a symbol of the divine. So what it points to is that the very thing that seems to stand in the way of realizing who you are. The very suffering that comes with being here in this physical realm---because eventually some form of suffering comes to everybody---can become an opening into that which we call the divine. If you're lucky, disaster comes before the physical form is lost and the psychological form dissolves. This sometimes happens through extreme suffering, when people lose everything, or they find out they don't have much more time to live. So they are faced with extreme disaster which cannot be explained away.

Philosophies collapse in the face of extreme disaster. Before, they might have had philosophy or religious beliefs, but when quite a few people face death of a loved one or their child or spouse, suddenly they question their beliefs. "This wasn't supposed to happen to me, I had a business arrangement with God. I wasn't supposed to suffer." The mind, the "me", collapses. Explanations fade. So you're faced with disaster you cannot explain that seems to deny the existence of something deeper. The cross seems to stand between you and the transcendental dimension to love. But, strangely, that very cross is the opening also.

Somebody once put it this way: "What stands in the way is the way." And you realize that when you no longer internally resist the form that this moment takes. I call it the "is-ness" of this moment.

JM: Would that be disaster or the honk of a horn while I'm trying to work?

ET: Yes. A little thing or a big thing, resistance is basically the same kind of mechanism. An internal "no" to what is. And since the now is all there ever is in your life, your entire life unfolds as the present moment. People don't realize it, but all they ever have is "this". This moment. Always.

It seems so strange to put it into words. Your life is always this moment. No more, no less. But just "this" is what most people unconsciously trying to run away from. They're always in some future moment where things are hopefully better, or more fulfilling. Or mentally they project a future moment they see as fearful, that they have to tackle this possible thing that might go wrong in the future and they try to deal with now. Ignoring the aliveness that is actually there concealed in now. It is a collective mental habit to run away, to deny and to resist the is-ness of this moment. Not to aligned with now. And everybody inherits that as a part of their collective mental conditioning. They're taught to live like that from their parents, from their schools. They probably inherit even the very minds structures that create that kind of consciousness.

But there's a shift happening in humanity, a shift in consciousness, happening now because it has to happen now. Because if it doesn't happen now, mankind probably won't survive. The dysfunction of the human mind and its condition is becoming more and more intolerable to the planet, and to humanity. People can't live with themselves much longer. The planet cannot live with humans much longer! The dysfunction has become so magnified through technology.

Whereas before, a human could kill a few hundred with a sword---if he was a warrior--- now, the same dysfunction is magnified. So we have the weaponry, destruction of the planet, pollution, destruction of forests, countless manifestations of humans using their intelligence in the service of the dysfunction, the madness. It's a strange juxtaposition. Humans are intelligent, but if you look at history or even watch TV, they're also incredibly stupid.

JM: Speaking of weapons of mass destruction; what do we do about that? What do we do about countries which wish our country great harm? What's an alternative if the other side is bent on suicide, as the men of 9-11 were? If you have a vast Army at your disposal, what do you do?
 
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