Loss to the world

Quote from dgabriel:



"it is regrettable" LIP SERVICE

I'd rather have the museums intact and the torture chambers shut down. 1/2 a platoon could have gaurded that museum.


you're right, it is mostly lip service. that's because in the world of armchair idealism you can dot every i and cross every t with the benefit of hindsight, but in the real world your resources are limited and you have to keep your priorities straight.

that "half a platoon" that could have so easily been spared to guard antiques was probably part of the plan for dealing with the massive guerrilla warfare that was promised on the streets of Baghdad, or part of the force that is patrolling secured areas in watch for loyalist forces masquerading as civilians, or part of the force trying to locate hidden caches of WMD as fast as possible before they can be used as a final act of spite by a dying regime. Rumsfeld and Franks were probably a bit busy worrying about things like ambush tactics, counter defenses and other life and death type issues to pay much attention to statues and scrolls. as it should be.
 
Except for the objects that were clearly damaged or destroyed, I don't know that I'd jump to the conclusion that much was "lost". Even if it's smuggled out of the country, it will wind up in the hands of private collectors. And I assume that smuggling anything out of the country will not be a simple matter.

This happens. Look what the Turks did to Greece. Remember the Alexandria Library. And England practically emptied Cairo during its occupation. It's unfortunate, but it's hardly a first.
 
Quote from darkhorse:




you're right, it is mostly lip service.

that "half a platoon" that could have so easily been spared to guard antiques was probably part of the plan for dealing with the massive guerrilla warfare that was promised on the streets of Baghdad, or part of the force that is patrolling secured areas in watch for loyalist forces masquerading as civilians, or part of the force trying to locate hidden caches of WMD as fast as possible before they can be used as a final act of spite by a dying regime. Rumsfeld and Franks were probably a bit busy worrying about things like ambush tactics, counter defenses and other life and death type issues to pay much attention to statues and scrolls. as it should be.

I don't see it as a tradeoff, Darkhorse, and I think you are being dishonest in saying so. We clearly had the resources to deal with this contingency on top of everything else you cited. Its not hindsight as there are so many precedents in history for this type of thing. They simply did not think about it or were not concerned.

You said it yourself "you're right, it is mostly lip service". If you don't care about the cultural treasures, don't rationalize the plunder, just say so.

How about, "well we really fucked that one up but I hope we'll learn from it"
 
Quote from dgabriel:



I don't see it as a tradeoff, Darkhorse, and I think you are being dishonest in saying so. We clearly had the resources to deal with this contingency on top of everything else you cited. Its not hindsight as there are so many precedents in history for this type of thing. They simply did not think about it or were not concerned.

You said it yourself "you're right, it is mostly lip service". If you don't care about the cultural treasures, don't rationalize the plunder, just say so.



I wasn't trying to rationalize anything, I was just trying to put things in perspective. Obviously it's a shame when something of great historical value is lost. But in terms of priorities, artefacts are far and away secondary to larger issues. Having a hierarchy of values doesn't mean that you "don't care," it means that you understand that some things are more important and you rightly focus more energy and attention on those things.

You say "we clearly had the resources to deal with this contingency," and I say that's armchair quarterback BS. This is completely a hindsight issue. How many times in the past few weeks or months have you read or heard discussions on whether or not Iraq's national treasures need to be protected from its own people (and even from the employees of the museum itself!!)?? We had no idea how things were going to go down before we got to Baghdad, and there were far bigger concerns on the plate.

And let's say we had thought about establishing a contingency plan to your liking- it's still not an easy call. Imagine the furor in the states if it came to light that American soldiers were killed guarding a museum. I know I would be furious if my little brother's life was wasted in defense of a statue.

Idealism is cut and dry, the real world is not. I care, yes, but I also have perspective. If self righteous protesters put as much time and energy into fighting human rights abuses as they do fighting for the rights of trees and monkeys and chickens (and now statues), I would be less inclined to write off their tirades.

 
By comparing the art and artefacts from the beginnings of human civilization to chickens you have made my point perfectly.

Mesopotamia is a far cry from Colonel Sanders.

Fighting human rights abuses! Get real. The the last thing your brother was sent to Iraq for was to stop a tyrant's abuse of his people.

Talk about idealism!

 
Quote from Rearden Metal:

While I regret the loss of these priceless historic treasures, I find it quite ironic that the same liberals/hippies/communists that so adamantly predicted a horrible military failure/quagmire/ second Viet Nam, are now moaning that we should have anticipated this quick victory, and should have made better plans to deal with Saddam's swift collapse.

Who are they. Name them? We'll throw old shoes on those Antiamerican lily livered pinko smegmacious arrow slinging fools, God willing, their entrails will blister and burn at the gates of hell.
They are condemned to a fiery death, those satanic liberals. God will bring to bear the severest of consequences upon those blasphemous doubters of the most wise omniscient Bush Iraqi policy. I warn you, I beseech you, keep your children indoors until these devils are routed from streets and airways of the great republic.
 
From
KANAN MAKIYA'S WAR DIARY
April 14

I spoke by sat-phone with friends in Baghdad. According to them, the breakdown of authority familiar to the world is getting better... One friend told me that the looting of the National Museum--something that cut deeply into me--was the work of newly deposed Baathist officials, who had been selling off our patrimony as they saw their days were numbered. As the regime fell, these (ex-)Baathists went back for one last swindle, and took with them treasures that dated back 9,000 years, to the Sumerians and the Babylonians. One final crime perpetrated by Saddam's thugs.

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=iraq&s=diary041403

From the WaPo via AP, April 12:

Sensing its treasures could be in peril, museum curators secretly removed antiquities from their display cases before the war and placed them into storage vaults - but to no avail. The doors of the vaults were opened or smashed, and everything was taken, museum workers said. That lead one museum employee to suspect that others familiar with the museum may have participated in the theft.

"The fact that the vaults were opened suggests that employees of the museum may have been involved," said the employee, who declined to be identified. "To ordinarily people, these are just stones. Only the educated know the value of these pieces."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14331-2003Apr12.html
 
From Robert Schwartz's blog:

So, lets think about this. The Museum, full of priceless antiquities, is located in a country run by a ruthless tyrant who has treated the country and its treasures as his personal playthings. It has been closed to the public for years. War has been threatened for months, and the tyrant knows that the city will be bombed, so does the museum staff. Rumors abound that the tyrant, his henchmen and their families are stashing treasure in foreign countries against the possibility of flight. When the army of liberation arrives, the Museum is empty, its displays and vaults ransacked. The staff blames an anonymous mob of civilians.

Motive, Means, Opportunity; isn’t that what Miss Marple would wonder about? The tyrant would certainly have them in spades. He would have sent some lackeys over to pick up things like the gold harp, which could easily pay for a favored mistress’ exile. But, wouldn’t the staff have pointed the finger at him, hoping to curry favor with the new boss? Maybe the tyrant didn’t take everything. He probably had no interest in clay cylinder seals. Tyrants are notoriously uninterested in the evolution of writing and the other elements of culture.

What about the staff of the Museum? When the allied armies approached Germany at the end of the Second World War and allied air forces stepped up their bombing attacks, the regime and the museum staffs packed up the contents of the country’s museums and stored them in mine shafts in the mountains. Why didn’t the staff of the Iraqi Museum do something like that? The Museum had "vaults with huge steel doors guarding storage chambers that descend floor after floor into unlighted darkness." Why weren’t the artifacts sealed in those vaults to protect against the bombing attack that everyone knew was coming? Were the vaults not equipped with bank vault type locks? Knowing what little I do about the tyrant, I would be surprised if he had stinted on that. But even if there were no locks on those vaults, any welder from a neighborhood body shop should be able to seal those doors to the point where looters could not open them without high explosives. Why were the exterior doors and windows of the Museum not barred?

To me, the most likely scenario is that the tyrant appropriated a number of small and very obviously valuable pieces and sent them into exile or hiding. The staff of the museum, like everyone else in Iraq, took no initiative while he was alive. In the week of Monday April 7as his regime collapsed they lost their fear of his goon squads.

The staff could have sealed up the collection in the vaults and sealed the vaults, the doors and windows. But maybe they had a better idea, they took the collection home "for safekeeping." When the looters and the newspapers showed up they had a convenient excuse not to return it. And they could make the reporters happy by blaming President Bush.

So where is the collection? Expressed in the way I would invest $100 in a pari-mutuel pool; betting on the best known items in the collection: Saddam’s family members in exile -- $80, the Museum staff -- $19 and the looters -- $1; betting on the bulk of the collection: Saddam’s family members in exile -- $33, the Museum staff -- $66 and the looters -- $1. Will the collection be recovered? Eventually. The stuff is hot. It may sit private collections for a long time, but eventually it will come to light where knowledgeable scholars will see it and it will be recovered, but this process may take a long time. Fifty seven years after the end of World War II the search for lost art from that war continues.

http://surroundedbyem.blogspot.com/
 
From today's WSJ Best of the Web:

Protecting Iraq's Antiquities

The Wall Street Journal (link requires WSJ.com subscription) reports that the looting at Baghdad's Iraq National Museum wasn't as bad as early reports had it:

Thanks to Iraqi preparations before the war, it seems the worst has been avoided. Donny George, the director-general of restoration at the Iraqi Antiquities Department, Wednesday said his staff had preserved the museum's most important treasures, including the kings' graves of Ur and the Assyrian bulls. These objects were hidden in vaults that haven't been violated by looters.

"Most of the things were removed. We knew a war was coming, so it was our duty to protect everything," Mr. George said. "We thought there would be some sort of bombing at the museum. We never thought it could be looted."

And why didn't America stop such looting as did take place? Lt. Col. Eric Schwartz of the U.S. Army's Third Infantry Division "said he couldn't move into the museum compound and protect it from looters last week because his soldiers were taking fire from the building--and were determined not to respond."
 
NY TIMES

Museum Pillage Described as Devastating but Not Total
By IAN FISHER


AGHDAD, Iraq, April 16 — Curators surveyed the damage at the National Museum of Iraq today, and expressed both worry at how much might have been stolen in the looting last week and tentative hope that thousands of years of Iraq's cultural heritage might not have vanished completely.

"It's not a total loss," Donny George, the director of research for the Iraqi Board of Antiquities, said in an interview today. "But some of the major masterpieces are gone."

The museum, which housed a priceless collection dating back 7,000 years to the Sumerian civilization, was looted over two days following the fall of Saddam Hussein's government. The pillaging infuriated Iraqis who complained that American troops here did little to stop it.

Two other repositories of artifacts, the National Library and a collection of old handwritten Korans, were also burned and stripped clean in what many experts believe may be an irrecoverable disaster for Islamic cultural heritage.

With the museum at last under the protection of American troops and tanks, Dr. George said today that part of the collection had been stored in vaults in the basement just before the war, though some of the heavier and more fragile items remained in the galleries. Some items were also taken elsewhere for storage.

He said looters did manage to break into the basement, but said his team of experts had only begun assessing the extent of the damage. "We have to check all the boxes to see what is lost," he said, "and that will take time, a lot of time."

Dr. George listed three treasures he said were missing: a three-foot carved Sumerian vase from 3200 B.C., a headless black statue of the Sumerian king Entemena, dating from 2600 B.C., and a carved sacred cup of the same age.

In the last several days, officials from Unesco and the British Museum, which houses one of the largest collections of Mesopotamian antiquities, said they would send experts to Iraq to help assess the losses.

In New York, Dr. Philippe de Montebello, director of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, said he was gaining wide support for proposals that the museum looters be offered immunity from prosecution and some compensation if they return their loot. He said he had spoken on Tuesday with Karl Rove, President Bush's chief political adviser, about efforts to recover the artifacts.

"He agreed that immunity and compensation was the way to go," Dr. de Montebello said of Mr. Rove, who did not indicate what, if anything, the White House was prepared to do.

In one possibly encouraging sign, several people in the Al Awi neighborhood that surrounds the museum said they did not see looters leave with any antiquities, even amid gun battles and looting that lasted two days.

An imam who lives behind the museum said he stood outside the museum for several hours on the first day of the looting, begging them to stop. "I kept reminding them that this is their country and it was against Islam to steal," said the imam, who asked not to be identified.

But he said the only items from the collection he saw stolen were several old rifles. Mostly, he said, he saw looters take chairs, typewriters, ceiling lamp fixtures and other items from the museum's offices, as happened at nearly every other government office in the capital.

Abed El Rahman, a museum security guard who lives on the premises, also said that rifles were the only items he saw stolen from the collections. "But many people were carrying boxes," he said. "I don't know what was in the boxes."

Mr. Rahman began to cry when asked what the museum was like before it was looted. "It was beautiful," he said. "The museum is civilization."
 
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