Looking for assistance in going to the next level, for mutual benefit

[whygodwhy]

Listen dude, I'm now more confused than I was before.

Can you give me a 2 sentence answer on what exactly you are looking for?

If you have hundreds of thousands of dollars in Apex (I assume that is the case, since you scoffed at $80k and said the money in the account would set you up nicely) then why not just stick it out for 2 months, withdraw the cash, and throw that bitch in your own account? If they don't pay, that's the cost of doing business. Make sure you record every session and log everything so you have a leg to stand on if you need to take them to court. Better start preparing for the worst now.

I don't understand the problem.

On a $50k account it isn't unreasonable to pull in $2k days with moderate, tightly controlled risk. Risk $250 a trade (0.5%), bag that 3R, and trade major intraday swings on a few products. 50% hit rate will do well, and if you trade active times the volatility will allow you to bag that high R and take 5-10 good trades a day.

I know because I've done it, both small accounts and large.

What products do you trade?
What is your normal size?
What type of moves are you going for? Big intraday swings? Short scalps?

I got news for you: in the futures world, every successful, profitable trader more or less trades the same setups: large intraday swings with size. Unless you're trading bonds, scalping is for chumps. Don't risk 5 to make 5 and churn water all day long when you could risk 15 to make 60. That pattern recognition you're talking about is more or less just action at key levels and you're getting onboard a market sentiment change.

I need more detail.

 

[Laissez Faire]

In the meantime, I would highly recommend TopStep. I am not affiliated with them in any way (I did a combine but I need to trade real money - SIM isn't my thing, but I really liked their setup and how they treated customers. The whole thing just felt well put-together).

In 2 days you can qualify for a funded account. In 5 you can get your first payout, and receive weekly payouts for up to 50% of the balance for the first 30 days. After 30 days you can take everything out and close the account if you wish. This is 2x-3x faster than Apex to get all of your money (20 trading days a month * 4 months = 80 days... 80 / 30... etc.).

Trade both if you can. Build an account/equity with TopStep so you don't have poor cash flow prior to switching.

Could you kindly elaborate on your strong recommendation of TopStep? Did you or do you know anyone who withdrew substantial funds from them?

Feelings are generally not interesting. Only facts and numbers.

I checked out their TrustPilot reviews after @DevBru made me aware that they reduced their number of rules to make it a more attractive proposition, but there were quite a few complaints there from recent reviewers.

I share your sentiments on Apex, though, which seems to echo what I have written here extensively earlier both in this and prior threads. The obvious advantage with TopStep and say Earn2Trade is that they do put you on a live account, at least eventually, which solves the conflict of interest that's inherent with Apex and similar (where a net profit for you is a net loss for them and hence why they will do what they can to prevent a payout).

 

[whygodwhy]

I think I've since than answered and clarified some of this, but since just out of curiosity I'll type this out trying to put myself in your shoes or vice versa.

-The majority of your trading work was with a broker and you just learned it's possible you can't withdrawal the funds. We can debate that I didn't do enough research so it's my fault, fair enough but doesn't change the situation.

-You could scale and be more efficient and potentially earn more time(regardless if you don't need or want to use the additional financial earnings to buy more material things, it still helps you earn time) with less overall risk and a substantially increased probability of success. IE: For simple example making $1.00 with $10.00 as an inherently higher risk profile than making $1.00 with $100.00 if we use a reasonable and equal timeline of let's say one day. If your automated trading is making "x" with "x", if it can support "xx" and make "xx" that can potentially be beneficial.

-Allow yourself ability to get lower commissions.

-Benefits would be industry standard or discussed and agreed upon just like any other business transaction.


Hopefully that clarifies.

If you're doing well then lease/purchase a seat on the exchange if you're worried about commission costs. You'll pay for the seat lease in one successful trade. Depending on what product you trade, for a few hundred a month you could lease a seat. $250/mo, for example, on equity indicies you would need an IOM lease and then would pay heavily discounted rates. RT is under $1.

I lease a seat and pay less than $1 a turn on pretty much everything: CME, NFA fees, broker fees, everything included. Some are less than $50 cents. But in all honesty commissions don't matter much unless you're trading ungodly size or doing 200 RTs a day like a bozo, trying to scalp 2 points on ES at a time.

 

[Laissez Faire]

I believe my day trading edge is high, based on my performance mainly, but also seeing what else is out there as far as people's trading or lack there of.

You should not need to 'believe your day trading edge is high' - your results alone should answer this and clear out all doubts.

From my perspective, trading, and day trading in particular, is a very marginal business and you're either making money or you're not. Sadly, being nearly good enough just ain't good enough as it would be in other professions where you can still be sloppy and get paid.

It's only too easy to fool ourselves in hindsight after the session is over and see how we were just a few points or bad decisions from nailing it down completely. But that's the thing. Those minor (or major) mistakes makes all the difference. And it may not be any different tomorrow.

Day trading with leverage requires accuracy, discipline (risk management + knowing when to not trade) and bringing your A-game every single day. Even if you get the big picture right (frequent on my end), you can still get chopped up in the interrim by volatility (counter-moves) or otherwise getting chopped up in a consolidation before the market finally takes off in your correctly predicted/anticipated direction.

One solution could be to simply reduce leverage which allows for less accuracy, but would typically also reduce your returns. Still, in the long term, it could be a better solution as daily consistency is better than an erratic P/L profile with big wins and big losses.

 

[whygodwhy]

Could you kindly elaborate on your strong recommendation of TopStep? Did you or do you know anyone who withdrew substantial funds from them?

Feelings are generally not interesting. Only facts and numbers.

I checked out their TrustPilot reviews after @DevBru made me aware that they reduced their number of rules to make it a more attractive proposition, but there were quite a few complaints there from recent reviewers.

I share your sentiments on Apex, though, which seems to echo what I have written here extensively earlier both in this and prior threads. The obvious advantage with TopStep and say Earn2Trade is that they do put you on a live account, at least eventually, which solves the conflict of interest that's inherent with Apex and similar (where a net profit for you is a net loss for them and hence why they will do what they can to prevent a payout).

I don't feel. I think.

The funding combine industry is a real shitshow. 50 companies sprung up and they're all competing with each other over the gamblers who can't trade. Nothing beats your own money in your own brokerage account.

If you need to use them then go with the best. Most are bucket shops. Top Step has been around a long time and I personally know people who have taken payouts from them, and then used that capital to fund their own accounts. It was faster for them to run 3 accounts and swing 15 lots, do that for 2 months and withdraw the profits, rather than working their job for another year to save up the same amount of capital to get started. I won't name drop on here due to privacy reasons. Take my word for whatever you think it's worth.

I keep an eye on the industry because it amuses me. I read a lot about these companies. The recent bad reviews were because every other company likes to badmouth every other company on TrustPilot and overexaggerate the negative elements of said company.

Most recently, TopStep changed their rules and offered quicker payouts, lower eval prices, and faster eval passing rates. The influx of customers overloaded their systems, causing massive delays in accounts being setup. That was resolved in under a week, the company was responsive every step of the way, no one was ever left in the dark, and this is no longer an issue. People like to bitch about things they either don't understand or fail to read (all of the TopStep issues were posted on the website and were impossible to miss). Wonder why no one makes money on the retail side? Most of these people are idiots and can't follow simple instructions or read simple statements).

If you have $2-5k and want to trade micros and build the account, throw that in an account and trade it. That's all these companies give you in margin anyway. You can't swing 10 lots on a $50k account and not expect to blow up. So why does Apex allow you to trade 10 lots on a $50k account? To blow up of course. They want your reset fees. You need to trade 1-2 lots or micros to build a profit cushion, so you may as well just use your own money and do the same thing, without the red tape, and without giving these companies your money in the first place.

The only reason I could ever see anyone using these companies is if they already know how to trade and they can swing the $500-$1,000 setup costs to get multiple funded accounts and trade a 50 lot for a few months and then withdraw the profits to fund their own account.

 

[whygodwhy]

I share your sentiments on Apex, though, which seems to echo what I have written here extensively earlier both in this and prior threads. The obvious advantage with TopStep and say Earn2Trade is that they do put you on a live account, at least eventually, which solves the conflict of interest that's inherent with Apex and similar (where a net profit for you is a net loss for them and hence why they will do what they can to prevent a payout).

TopStep also has EOD drawdown and not unrealized PNL drawdown like Apex has. You can blow an account with a breakeven trade on Apex. They say it's to 'eliminate risk', whatever the fuck that means. Go read their replies to the negative comments. It's all bullshit. They're doing it to protect their own ass and fail as many people as possible. In what world do you lose money on a breakeven trade? Fuck, I add to positions all the time. I couldn't imagine adding to a winner, having to incur additional risk, and then losing my drawdown or my account because of some natural pullback in the market. The company is completely fucked and wants you to fail.

Topstep does not have consistency requirements on a funded account. You can make $200 one day and $20,000 the next, and they're okay with it. Their consistency requirement is in the eval so you have to prove consistency first and then they let you do whatever you want.

Apex is the opposite. You can YOLO a trade, gamble away, pass the eval in 1 day, and then you're subjected to consistency requirements in the funded account. They do this so they have as many people passing evals as possible and then double dipping on the paid PA activation fee. All these people who gambled their way into a PA account will blow it within days/hours and then have to start over again. Brilliant con.

They also cap payouts for 4 months. They're sleazebags.

TopStep will not only put you in a live account but adjust your risk parameters so that you can increase your daily loss limit, trade bigger size, merge your currently existing funded accounts, etc.

TopStep is as close to a real prop firm that you'll find in the funded combine world. All else is below par, in my opinion. I could literally start an eval Monday morning, pass by Tuesday close of CME, trade Wed, Thurs, Fri, Mon, Tues, and have a payout that Tuesday night. 8 day turnaround time. No brainer.

 

[Laissez Faire]

TopStep is as close to a real prop firm that you'll find in the funded combine world. All else is below par, in my opinion. I could literally start an eval Monday morning, pass by Tuesday close of CME, trade Wed, Thurs, Fri, Mon, Tues, and have a payout that Tuesday night. 8 day turnaround time. No brainer.

You seem to have a lot of knowledge about these firms and TopStep in particular.

How would you rate E2T in comparison? From my point of view, only TopStep and E2T are viable alternatives with the critical parameter being that they actually put you on a live account which doesn't introduce any conflicts of interest between you and the firm, i.e., a net profit for you is a net profit for them versus a net profit for you being a net loss for them as is the case with the firms that have you indefinitely on a simulator (Apex, LeeLoo, etc.). Not to mention the payout policy which as I understand it with both TopStep (I think they had more limitations in the past) and E2T is very favourable.

It would have been an even more interesting offer if in fact these firms were willing to stake you even further, but my understanding is that none of these firms will fund you beyond the initial shoestring they're providing. I think TopStep even confirmed this directly when I asked them here on the boards.

You know anything else?

 

[whygodwhy]

I've never used or researched E2T so I cannot say. That was one company I never managed to look into, but it's next on my list.

Yes, TopStep was at the bottom of my list for a while because they had higher eval costs, weird 2-step evaluations, long payout times, etc. They only recently have became worthy of using, even though they do have a long track record of keeping their word and actually funding traders.

I don't know how long ago you spoke with TopStep, but from what I have been told recently, they are willing to merge multiple funded accounts into one, provide you with more capital, and increase daily loss limits once you show long-term consistency.

The only downfall to a live, funded account is that you are now classified as a professional and will pay professional market-data rates. Taxes are different as well. Live Sim = independent contractor, which means you aren't subjected to 1256 and have to pay self-employment tax, which if you max out the tax/income bracket can be 10+% more. ie. LiveSim is worse on your taxes and overall bottom line.

Benefit of Live Sim is that you can get setup instantly because you're not trading live capital, which is what most people want (to be setup instantly and start trading now). Otherwise you have to go through signing legal documents to get setup, which can take 1+ weeks on a live account.

Not sure what else I can provide at this time. Didn't sleep last night so I'm about to hit the sack. I'll check back later for a response.

Thanks for the inquiries.

 

[Astnfd]

Listen dude, I'm now more confused than I was before.

Can you give me a 2 sentence answer on what exactly you are looking for?

Sure, ultimately funding for a live account. Until I can withdrawal large sums from APEX(if ever for the large sum amount) I cannot make a very big live futures account at all and if I were to put together even one of 10k I'd have to take money from places I shouldn't and I am not going to be irresponsible. This is no complaint or sob story at all, that's just the facts.

If you have hundreds of thousands of dollars in Apex (I assume that is the case, since you scoffed at $80k and said the money in the account would set you up nicely) then why not just stick it out for 2 months, withdraw the cash, and throw that bitch in your own account? If they don't pay, that's the cost of doing business. Make sure you record every session and log everything so you have a leg to stand on if you need to take them to court. Better start preparing for the worst now.

I don't understand the problem.

Yes, I agree with you on the preparing and I've already have been doing and started that process. I highly doubt they are going to pay out, that is why I am also preparing now and making this post. To me that makes sense? There is not a problem there is nothing really negative here at all (outside of the prop firm situation and issues I listed) if I have to go a slower route or no one is interested and doesn't see the value, that's fine and that's life. I did not scoff or mean to at 80k, someone just asked me what I make per year at my job and I told them. I agree with the 50k, although would build it up a cushion first. In a perfect world based on how I trade and expectations. I'd have a 100k account which is very reasonable $2-$3k a day on average, including days potentially not trading and also losing days.


On a $50k account it isn't unreasonable to pull in $2k days with moderate, tightly controlled risk. Risk $250 a trade (0.5%), bag that 3R, and trade major intraday swings on a few products. 50% hit rate will do well, and if you trade active times the volatility will allow you to bag that high R and take 5-10 good trades a day.

I know because I've done it, both small accounts and large.

What products do you trade?
NQ
What is your normal size?
18-21 micro's generally. Some trades I do go up to 50 or more(on the account that is up a lot)
What type of moves are you going for? Big intraday swings? Short scalps?
General look to hit bigger swings. That's where a lot of the profit comes from. Otherwise I do trail some out and also increase my stop on some of the positions and look to get at least 2 reward per 1 risk, but in reality often ends up being 1.8(on trailers and/or if the the market does not move substantially in my favor) My losses are anywhere from 1 to 15 max points(Due to data issues there are a few outliers). Generally losses fall into the 6-12 point loss range.

I got news for you: in the futures world, every successful, profitable trader more or less trades the same setups: large intraday swings with size. Unless you're trading bonds, scalping is for chumps. Don't risk 5 to make 5 and churn water all day long when you could risk 15 to make 60. That pattern recognition you're talking about is more or less just action at key levels and you're getting onboard a market sentiment change.

Yes, from few people I can ascertain who are likely profitable I have noticed and am aware. Have also seen some who trade fairly light size relative to their account size, also going for larger moves but able to produce a very livable income. Generally the most common and "easiest" use that term loosely is R/R from a base level, which makes sense because you don't have to compete at necessarily such a high level if you're going for smaller moves, with tons of traps to potentially fall into.

I need more detail.

I answered in bold inside your quotes, so just expand the message. I genuinely don't know how to be more clear.

 

[Astnfd]

You should not need to 'believe your day trading edge is high' - your results alone should answer this and clear out all doubts.

From my perspective, trading, and day trading in particular, is a very marginal business and you're either making money or you're not. Sadly, being nearly good enough just ain't good enough as it would be in other professions where you can still be sloppy and get paid.

It's only too easy to fool ourselves in hindsight after the session is over and see how we were just a few points or bad decisions from nailing it down completely. But that's the thing. Those minor (or major) mistakes makes all the difference. And it may not be any different tomorrow.

Day trading with leverage requires accuracy, discipline (risk management + knowing when to not trade) and bringing your A-game every single day. Even if you get the big picture right (frequent on my end), you can still get chopped up in the interrim by volatility (counter-moves) or otherwise getting chopped up in a consolidation before the market finally takes off in your correctly predicted/anticipated direction.

One solution could be to simply reduce leverage which allows for less accuracy, but would typically also reduce your returns. Still, in the long term, it could be a better solution as daily consistency is better than an erratic P/L profile with big wins and big losses.

Just by your comments alone I can tell you're likely closer to being profitable than most other people. You seem to get the game and understand the pitfalls that derail most traders, while also truly comprehending how difficult day trading is. I mean everyone says it's difficult, but they are generally just mindlessly repeating others without real comprehension. What you said is very important bringing your A game every single day.

Also understand and agree with your last statement. That's why I said everything I did. There is no inherent problem or negative thing here and if I end up having to go the slower route, so be it. No one owes me anything. We both know, as I think a lot of people do that all things being equal it's a much lower risk profile to make $1.00 from $100.00 than $1.00 from $10.00 on a daily basis, to use a simple example.

The only thing I am not on board with is your first comment. I don't "believe" I have edge, am going off the progress I've made and the improvement of my results over time. Yes, that is the language I used, you have me there on a technicality if you want to, but I am letting you know that was not my intended meaning.

Also, your statement regarding fooling is exactly why I would, will and do demand anyone trying to sell me anything, trade with me or anything at all having to do seriously with trading to be able to real time trade with me. Ever noticed how if you bring that up people run in fear? They have all types of excuses. Even saying they don't have time, yet some people here have thousands of post, they certainly have time for that. That's one thing that blows my mind. Everyone seems so negative and they doubt everything and try to tell you information, but no one can perform in real time? That's like me telling you I can shoot free throws really well and I want to help you and give you information Than you ask me do you mind shooting a few free throws in front of me? Oh no I can't do that but here's tons of posts and responses for you all my great knowledge. Also, let me throw in a video of me hitting ten free throws in a row from a year ago Is that not amazing to you?