Liz Cheney 2024 Feel the Burn

TreeFrogTrader said:
Not necessarily. Much litigation required to look at the facts and law of such occurrences.

Classification and declassification processes and procedures are for the purpose of giving proper and orderly notice to the executive branch employees and/or to the public so that it is properly communicated and so that the underlings may know how to treat it and what classification status they can rely upon.

That does not apply to the president. He can declassify immediately it for his own usage per his ultimate authority under the Constitution even though it may take much longer for the bureaucracy to go through every thing and reclassify it for the public or the bureaucracy. Similarly he may declassify and - as we seen under Wray and Garland they may refuse or foot drag to carry out the declassification of certain material that Trump declassified because they figure he is gone and they do not need to release material that makes the FBI and the DOJ look bad. That does not mean it was not under order to be declassified or that Trump was not entitled to treat it as such for himself.

Garland - after his Mar-A-Lago- needs to try the case now. Go for it. I don't know, and neither do you, exactly what documents he had and how they related to his alleged declassification. But there is no turning back if Garland knows what's good for him. He can't just say, "well we got some boxes back" so we are done. Nope. Let's see the indictments and get on with it. The legal issues will be fully addressed in that process. If Garland backs down, well, can you spell "witch-hunt" boys and girls?
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Once again let me post the detailed information on declassification of documents by a President...

Under federal law, Trump does not have the power to unilaterally declassify documents. There is a review process for this -- where the original classifying authority has to declassify the documents at the direction of the president -- for declassification to occur. The president cannot merely wave his hand over a document and claim "now this is declassified". There is a process that involves written documentation and several other steps.

It's not the case that a president can declassify documents with just verbal instructions. His instruction to declassify a given document would first be memorialized in a written memo, usually drafted by White House counsel, which he would then sign.

Typically, the leadership of the agency or agencies with equities in the document would be consulted and given an opportunity to provide their views on the declassification decision. As the ultimate declassification authority, however, the president can decide to override any objections they raise.

Once a final decision is made, and the relevant agency receives the president's signed memo, the physical document in question would be marked — the old classification level would be crossed out — and the document would then be stamped, "Declassified on X date" by the agency in question.

Former Trump administration officials have claimed that Trump previously declassified the documents taken with him to Mar-a-Lago, but that the classification markings had not been updated.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-classified-records/

Here are some additional sources with facts to help you out.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...fbi-raid-classified-nuclear-documents/671119/

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/14/us/politics/trump-classified-documents.html

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/do...ago-documents-experts-say-unclear-w-rcna42311
 
gwb-trading said:
Once again let me post the detailed information on declassification of documents by a President...

Under federal law, Trump does not have the power to unilaterally declassify documents. There is a review process for this -- where the original classifying authority has to declassify the documents at the direction of the president -- for declassification to occur. The president cannot merely wave his hand over a document and claim "now this is declassified". There is a process that involves written documentation and several other steps.

It's not the case that a president can declassify documents with just verbal instructions. His instruction to declassify a given document would first be memorialized in a written memo, usually drafted by White House counsel, which he would then sign.

Typically, the leadership of the agency or agencies with equities in the document would be consulted and given an opportunity to provide their views on the declassification decision. As the ultimate declassification authority, however, the president can decide to override any objections they raise.

Once a final decision is made, and the relevant agency receives the president's signed memo, the physical document in question would be marked — the old classification level would be crossed out — and the document would then be stamped, "Declassified on X date" by the agency in question.

Former Trump administration officials have claimed that Trump previously declassified the documents taken with him to Mar-a-Lago, but that the classification markings had not been updated.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-classified-records/

Here are some additional sources with facts to help you out.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...fbi-raid-classified-nuclear-documents/671119/

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/14/us/politics/trump-classified-documents.html

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/do...ago-documents-experts-say-unclear-w-rcna42311
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As I said before, I am not going to try the case here. Garland is REQUIRED to do that if knows the consequences of not doing it.

Also as I said there is difference between when and how the process of perfecting the declassification for others must occur upon the order of the president, versus what a president is entitled to have in his possession given his god-level security clearance by virtue of the Constitution. Let's not get repetitive. I see your material, as well as a multitude of other opinions. Let us rejoice that this will be addressed after the indictment. Get going.

I engaged in endless bloviating about a president can and cannot do when everyone was focused on Mueller and how this and that was definitely allegedly illegal and a president allegedly cannot do it. Same with the whole perfectly fine Ukraine conversation. Get it into court and I will focus on it from there. So will Trump's attorneys. A DC court does not mean much to me either. I have to see what it looks like after it goes up to the Supreme Court.

For the same of argument I will accept your view that Trump violated a whole pantload of laws. Fine. So that means we should see either an indictment soon, right?
 
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TreeFrogTrader said:
As I said before, I am not going to try the case here. Garland is REQUIRED to do that if knows the consequences of not doing it.

Also as I said there is difference between when and how the process of perfecting the declassification for others must occur upon the order of the president, versus what a president is entitled to have in his possession given his god-level security clearance by virtue of the Constitution. Let's not get repetitive. I see your material, as well as a multitude of other opinions. Let us rejoice that this will be addressed after the indictment. Get going.

I engaged in endless bloviating about a president can and cannot do when everyone was focused on Mueller and how this and that was definitely allegedly illegal and a president allegedly cannot do it. Same with the whole perfectly fine Ukraine conversation. Get it into court and I will focus on it from there. So will Trump's attorneys. A DC court does not mean much to me either. I have to see what it looks like after it goes up to the Supreme Court.

For the same of argument I will accept your view that Trump violated a whole pantload of laws. Fine. So that means we should see either an indictment soon, right?
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So a guy who is no longer President is somehow magically allowed to have piles of documents which have not been declassified via any normal process in his closet. I think not.
 
gwb-trading said:
So a guy who is no longer President is somehow magically allowed to have piles of documents which have not been declassified via any normal process in his closet. I think not.
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Establish the facts first, and from there the applicable law will be reviewed. I think I made the point a couple times over that we and the world had endless discussions about Trump and scary Mueller because "trump or a president cannot do X,Y, Z. Then he was never indicted on anything.

Trump's attorneys argue that he declassified certain documents and I have no way of knowing whether he did or not or what was in the boxes to know whether if what he declassified- if he did- includes what he had. I have no way of knowing and neither do you. I get though that if it is Trump he is guilty and is going to prison for you, just as with Mueller, or not.

Establish the facts in court along with the charges from the indictment. Garland is going to do that very soon right?

Also, just to help you with your argument if you want to go down that road, he warrant referenced the Espionage Act and that act makes no mention of classification at all. Just removal of documents from their normal place of safekeeping. So there ya go. Easy-peasy. Of course it did not apply to Hillary but we are talking Trump. So let's get this indictment going.

I don't discount the possibility that Garland will proceed with some kind of charge because he sees getting at Trump as his primary duty to Biden. And this is DC where you can convict a Republican. So I am not saying that he cannot get some bullshit charge and then get a plea or something. I am just saying "let's go." There is a firestorm waiting for him and double standard DOJ/FBI will plunge further into disgrace. So let's get going.

Also, this is the Cheney thread, but the discussion is more Mar-A-Lago raid related so maybe move it over there if you want to go repetitive on it. Probably I contributed to going down the wrong path by responding to your post that brought the issue of having classified documents into the cheney discussion.
 
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TreeFrogTrader said:
Establish the facts first, and from there the applicable law will be reviewed. I think I made the point a couple times over that we and the world had endless discussions about Trump and scary Mueller because "trump or a president cannot do X,Y, Z. Then he was never indicted on anything.

Trump's attorneys argue that he declassified certain documents and I have no way of knowing whether he did or not or what was in the boxes to know whether if what he declassified- if he did- includes what he had. I have no way of knowing and neither do you. I get though that if it is Trump he is guilty and is going to prison for you, just as with Mueller, or not.

Establish the facts in court along with the charges from the indictment. Garland is going to do that very soon right?

Also, just to help you with your argument if you want to go down that road, he warrant referenced the Espionage Act and that act makes no mention of classification at all. Just removal of documents from their normal place of safekeeping. So there ya go. Easy-peasy. Of course it did not apply to Hillary but we are talking Trump. So let's get this indictment going.

I don't discount the possibility that Garland will proceed with some kind of charge because he sees getting at Trump as his primary duty to Biden. And this is DC where you can convict a Republican. So I am not saying that he cannot get some bullshit charge and then get a plea or something. I am just saying "let's go." There is a firestorm waiting for him and double standard DOJ/FBI will plunge further into disgrace. So let's get going.

Also, this is the Cheney thread, but the discussion is more Mar-A-Lago raid related so maybe move it over there if you want to go repetitive on it. Probably I contributed to going down the wrong path by responding to your post that brought the issue of having classified documents into the cheney discussion.
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Once again -- the only documents that were once classified that an ex-President can have in his possession would be ones that are clearly marked "Declassified on X date".
 
gwb-trading said:
Once again -- the only documents that were once classified that an ex-President can have in his possession would be ones that are clearly marked "Declassified on X date".
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Then get that indictment going.

Garland is not going to be able to walk away from this just by saying "We got Melania's library books back so I am good now."

Nope. Let's go.
 
gwb-trading said:
Harriet Hageman showed her lack of class by never picking up the phone.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1559935659673980929
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Maybe Cheney could have said publicly "I have tried to reach Ms. Hageman but I know that she and her team are busy reacting to her victory -but I look forward to speaking with her, and in the meantime I want to extend my congratulations to her and wish her the very best as she begins her service to the people of Wyoming in this important role."

Instead of being a bitch.
 
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TreeFrogTrader said:
Maybe Cheney could have said publicly "I have tried to reach Ms. Hageman but I know that she and her team are busy reacting to her victory -but I look forward to speaking with her, and in the meantime I want to extend my congratulations to her and wish her the very best as she begins her service to the people of Wyoming in this important role."

Instead of being a bitch.
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Maybe you should listen to her concession speech.
 
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