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exactly... my point.
Now take that same thinking skill and apply it to the bigger picture...

For instance...
Giving out temporary vaccines in the middle of a pandemic...
Let's apply your statement:
"No (one) can pull any long term analysis from that,"
(this is what I have been arguing the whole time.)



It bothers me for the future... that so many people are drones...
But its even worse... than that...
So many capable of critical thinking only apply those thoughts to one side.

Its is Orwellian.

(by the way I am not directly going after you on this... I do not know if you have been applying critical thinking skills to both sides.)

What do you mean “temporary vaccines?” Lots of vaccines wane. “Temporary” isn’t an issue.
 
Let me say that I believe there needs to be an approach for boosters based on actual antibody tests of individuals. While there is strong evidence the immunocompromised and elderly (above 65) will need boosters earlier than the one year mark -- many other people may not require boosters before one year if they have sufficient antibody levels from their original vaccinations.

It would be best to test every individual at the eight month mark and later intervals as well to see if they have sufficient Covid antibody levels to stop infection. Only give boosters to those whose antibody levels are low (below a threshold).

There are now cheaper antibody tests available (and under development) which can quickly provide Covid antibody results. They should ask people to take a antibody test before they get a booster shot... and tell them when they need to come back for their next test in several months (if more vaccination is not needed).

Of course there is the question of who would pay for these antibody tests -- there would need to be government funding to support this testing. I would note the overall cost nationwide in the U.S. would be a tiny fraction of what the government has spent on Covid.

Likewise this approach can be used for allowing "natural immunity" after infection count as a vaccination for "passport" purposes. It should be noted that governments in Europe only allow "natural immunity" post-Covid infection to count for 90 days. In some individual the antibody levels may be sufficient for many months after this mark, and in others not last after this mark. As noted before, studies have shown 40% of individuals infected with Covid do not have sufficient antibody levels to stop reinfection at the 6 month mark -- however this means that 60% do have sufficient levels to stop reinfection at the six month mark and beyond.

IMO those wanting "natural immunity" should be tested every three months after recovery and considered to be the equivalent of vaccinated for "passport" purposes if their Covid antibody levels are above the threshold to stop re-infection. However if an individual who was naturally infected with Covid does not have sufficient antibody levels then they would be required to get a booster vaccination. I will note there have been a few medical professionals in Europe who pushed for this type of antibody testing of the infected to allow "natural immunity" to be counted for longer than 90 days.

I recognize this type of policy supporting testing for "natural immunity" would be controversial when the national focus is to get everyone vaccinated -- and they even have mandated large employers with 100 employees in the U.S. require vaccination. Along with the reality that the associated risk from catching Covid with a Case Fatality Rate of 2% is a terrible way to obtain immunity.

Coupled with concerns along the lines of what if you have "natural immunity" at 6 months and then not at 9 months -- during this three month interval is the person an infection risk vector. Well -- the reality is that the vaccinated needing boosters have the same type of risk.

Effectively the first-generation of Covid vaccines, which are not universal or permanent, have the same types of risk with fading immunity that "natural infection" has. No matter which path an individual acquired immunity from -- vaccination or natural infection -- their immunity is going to fade over time. The question is how quickly. And the best way to create a national strategy to prevent re-infections and spread is to tailor antibody testing to individuals.

Well yes and no. We do not know if the t and B cell responses are life long. So a Covid vaccine from this generation can possibly theoretically stave severe illness many years even if it does not prevent mild infection.

Some persons cannot withstand even a mild infection and that’s where there is a need a high level of antibodies.

We will see. My guess is the recommendation for boosters will 55 years and over at 6 months. That seems to be where the biggest bang for the buck is.
 
boom... there is your 95% percent efficacy...
you you fucking douchebag... you lying fuck...

using stale data to tell us 95% efficacy or whatever bullshit number you were lying about as we were telling the efficacy was failing as the vaccines get older.

What do you mean “temporary vaccines?” Lots of vaccines wane. “Temporary” isn’t an issue.

Delta variant is so contagious it ‘raises the bar’ for Covid vaccines, Moderna president says
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/16/mod...so-contagious-it-raises-bar-for-vaccines.html


Moderna analysis: Those vaccinated last year twice more likely to get COVID-19 than those jabbed recently
Moderna's research shows that those vaccinated later had fewer breakthrough cases
https://www.foxnews.com/health/anal...ive-against-delta-variant-immunity-could-wane
 
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Well yes and no. We do not know if the t and B cell responses are life long. So a Covid vaccine from this generation can possibly theoretically stave severe illness many years even if it does not prevent mild infection.

Some persons cannot withstand even a mild infection and that’s where there is a need a high level of antibodies.

We will see. My guess is the recommendation for boosters will 55 years and over at 6 months. That seems to be where the biggest bang for the buck is.

You should note that the standard for ALL other vaccines in terms of effectiveness and waning is if sufficient antibody levels are present in the individual. An IGT Antibody test is used to make this determination for Mumps, Measles, and nearly all other vaccinated diseases to determine individual effectiveness. If sufficient antibody levels are not present then the person is deemed unprotected. There is no consideration of T-cell or B-cell responses (which don't provide immunity BTW) in determination if a person still has effective vaccinated immunity to a disease. I will note that this "T & B-cell immunity" chatter is an anti-vaxxer talking point for casting doubt on Covid vaccination currently -- which is why outside of discussions from respected scientists studying it in context of vaccination the chatter should be ignored.
 
You should note that the standard for ALL other vaccines in terms of effectiveness and waning is if sufficient antibody levels are present in the individual. An IGT Antibody test is used to make this determination for Mumps, Measles, and nearly all other vaccinated diseases to determine individual effectiveness. If sufficient antibody levels are not present then the person is deemed unprotected. There is no consideration of T-cell or B-cell responses (which don't provide immunity BTW) in determination if a person still has effective vaccinated immunity to a disease. I will note that this "T & B-cell immunity" chatter is an anti-vaxxer talking point for casting doubt on Covid vaccination currently -- which is why outside of discussions from respected scientists studying it in context of vaccination the chatter should be ignored.

I don’t know that what you’re saying to be true but I also don’t have any reason to disagree.

The below link is from a leading infectious disease expert. This is probably the best walk through of t and B cell response as part of the bodies immunological response.

https://leaps.org/amp/how-long-do-covid-antibodies-last-2654881722?__twitter_impression=true
 
I don’t know that what you’re saying to be true but I also don’t have any reason to disagree.

The below link is from a leading infectious disease expert. This is probably the best walk through of t and B cell response as part of the bodies immunological response.

https://leaps.org/amp/how-long-do-covid-antibodies-last-2654881722?__twitter_impression=true
Exactly. Injecting a pathogen will obviously cause an antibody response. Hopefully the body will learn, remember the virus and combat it in the future by making the needed antibodies. Your link states exactly that, thru B and T cells.

If these mRNA vaccines are not producing a lasting B and T cell response then we have a problem.

Thinking out loud, does the immune system need more than just a copied spike protein, a more complete form of the virus to map for a better, longer lasting immunity.
 
...Thinking out loud, does the immune system need more than just a copied spike protein, a more complete form of the virus to map for a better, longer lasting immunity.

I've never studied Covid immune responses...its a new virus.

Yet, from what I can remember from school about 30 years ago, for longer lasting immunity that you're curious about, you would need the immune system to recognize more than just the proteins on the virus / bacteria...

It would need to also recognize the peptides and polysaccharides on the virus...all of which are part of Antigens. Simply, I recommend you learn more about our immune responses to the Antigens of the Coronavirus.
  • Thus, in theory, the more things our immune system can remember about the virus...the longer lasting the immunity.
As stated, Covid is still new...they're still learning about it. In fact, some Universities in France are now including molecular and serology studies of Covid apparently because there are different things about it not included in recent immunology studies prior to what's known about viruses.

Covid has shaken up the world of medicine and I believe after this Pandemic...there will be new cures for other diseases based upon what they've learned about Covid.

Covid-19-Antigens.png


In contrast, today's antiviral therapeutic treatments against Covid...they're targeting the Nucleocapside (N) protein. Essentially being a nucleoside inhibitor. This is the old way of attacking viruses when there were no vaccines. It's still effective today but care needs to be greater to not kill off the host (our bodies).

In my opinion, this is why antiviral therapeutic treatments are more dangerous than vaccines as in more risks. The reason I think antiviral therapeutic treatments are more dangerous is because to do their job...they need to stop endosomal acidification along with inhibiting viral RNA release after it enters the host cells.

Covid-19-Antigens-1.png


wrbtrader
 
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a. props for that info Wrb.

I realize you may know this subject well...

b. So... what do you think of this risk...
As more than one scientist has warned...

There is a risk that the pathogen figures out how to do hide itself on a spike protein so that it enters the cell without triggering the bodies immune responses.

Correct? This is called ADE right?
That could be fatal outcome for the host... right?


c. Now...
What if a new variant does that to the mRNA spike protein as we keep training it on boosters?
Everyone with a mRNA spike protein in their body could die... if they get infected with this new variant? Correct?

Now Do you see why its immoral for force this on healthy young people.
And... scientists tell us there is no way to put odds on this.
 
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