Larry Williams

[Good1]

That is just to suck them in for the $2500 course. And also to filter out those just looking for free stuff.

I studied info marketing for a while (google Dan Kennedy), and yah, the seminar is called "the backend", and really is the goal. One marketer recorded one of his seminars onto cassette tape and sold/included that as part of his "frontend".

Typically a pro marketer will approach someone like Larry Williams, who has ROI (return on investment) information (the most valuable kind of info) and offer to market all their ideas for 50% gross or net or something.

People will go to a seminar for the same reason they would go on a special cruise ship trip with any particular guru (you're selling a little bit of celebrity).

The caveat is that what is available for a $200 "course" can easily start out as a $5 paperback you can find most anywhere. Take Ken Roberts "course" for example. Part of his marketing campaign narrated a story whereby his method was discovered in a book store from an old book that is now out of print. It was probably a reference to this book by Edwards and Magee:

Technical Analysis of Stock Trends, 8th Edition: Edwards, Robert D., Magee, John, Bassetti, W.H.C.: 9780814406809: Amazon.com: Books

I got this book in hardcover for free from a library give-away of books they no longer wanted to stock. Someone had studied the hell out of it by the looks of the penciled margin notes and the yellow highlights all over.

But there you will find Robert's "1-2-3" head-and-shoulder pattern. That and a consolidation breakout pattern, made famous by "the Turtles" was the basis of Robert's frontend course and backend seminars.

One thing i was surprised to learn is that you have to walk a fine line between the value offered in the frontend versus the backend. I was surprised to learn that you don't necessarily withhold any really valuable info out of the frontend. The assumption is there will be more value at a seminar, but that is not necessarily the case.

Let's say for example you send out a two-page sales letter to sell a $19.95 paperback fold over. Even though the fold over booklet is actually a sales letter that filters out (or filters in) a certain kind of potential customer, you would indeed try to fill the fold over with value, fulfilling any promised information and even more. Technically, no one would need to order a $200 "course" after that, nor the seminar after that. Exceeding expectations with the fold over will sell a few courses. In turn, exceeding expectations there will sell a few seminars.

Roberts course was sold via a colorful free fold over booklet that found your mailbox if you had signed up with any futures brokers who sold their "list" to Roberts. The idea is that if you actually read the entire booklet, you will be pretty stoked to take the next step and order the $200 course. Same with Williams course in that same era (late 90's).

Larrys's booklet did a good job of bringing through his down-to-earth speaking personality. The free booklets do withhold, however. Being free, they don't have to offer value, and rarely did. So it was mostly personality or interesting narrative.

 

[long]

I studied info marketing for a while (google Dan Kennedy), and yah, the seminar is called "the backend", and really is the goal. One marketer recorded one of his seminars onto cassette tape and sold/included that as part of his "frontend".

Typically a pro marketer will approach someone like Larry Williams, who has ROI (return on investment) information (the most valuable kind of info) and offer to market all their ideas for 50% gross or net or something.

People will go to a seminar for the same reason they would go on a special cruise ship trip with any particular guru (you're selling a little bit of celebrity).

The caveat is that what is available for a $200 "course" can easily start out as a $5 paperback you can find most anywhere. Take Ken Roberts "course" for example. Part of his marketing campaign narrated a story whereby his method was discovered in a book store from an old book that is now out of print. It was probably a reference to this book by Edwards and Magee:

Technical Analysis of Stock Trends, 8th Edition: Edwards, Robert D., Magee, John, Bassetti, W.H.C.: 9780814406809: Amazon.com: Books

I got this book in hardcover for free from a library give-away of books they no longer wanted to stock. Someone had studied the hell out of it by the looks of the penciled margin notes and the yellow highlights all over.

But there you will find Robert's "1-2-3" head-and-shoulder pattern. That and a consolidation breakout pattern, made famous by "the Turtles" was the basis of Robert's frontend course and backend seminars.

One thing i was surprised to learn is that you have to walk a fine line between the value offered in the frontend versus the backend. I was surprised to learn that you don't necessarily withhold any really valuable info out of the frontend. The assumption is there will be more value at a seminar, but that is not necessarily the case.

Let's say for example you send out a two-page sales letter to sell a $19.95 paperback fold over. Even though the fold over booklet is actually a sales letter that filters out (or filters in) a certain kind of potential customer, you would indeed try to fill the fold over with value, fulfilling any promised information and even more. Technically, no one would need to order a $200 "course" after that, nor the seminar after that. Exceeding expectations with the fold over will sell a few courses. In turn, exceeding expectations there will sell a few seminars.

Roberts course was sold via a colorful free fold over booklet that found your mailbox if you had signed up with any futures brokers who sold their "list" to Roberts. The idea is that if you actually read the entire booklet, you will be pretty stoked to take the next step and order the $200 course. Same with Williams course in that same era (late 90's).

Larrys's booklet did a good job of bringing through his down-to-earth speaking personality. The free booklets do withhold, however. Being free, they don't have to offer value, and rarely did. So it was mostly personality or interesting narrative.

Haha! I bought the TWMPMM course in the late 90’s. The guy that Ken said wrote the book he learned from was Ted Warren. I just googled it and Ted does have a trading book but it looks a lot more in depth that what Ken offered in his course. I remember that the Ted Warren book that was included in the advanced course was a little more than a pamphlet. Probably 6”x8” and a quarter inch thick. It could’ve been a section of Ted’s book but not the whole thing.

 

[Good1]

Haha! I bought the TWMPMM course in the late 90’s. The guy that Ken said wrote the book he learned from was Ted Warren. I just googled it and Ted does have a trading book but it looks a lot more in depth that what Ken offered in his course. I remember that the Ted Warren book that was included in the advanced course was a little more than a pamphlet. Probably 6”x8” and a quarter inch thick. It could’ve been a section of Ted’s book but not the whole thing.

Hmmm. The plot thickens. It appears Ted Warren is Ken Roberts own company, or one of his companies, according to this FTC violation statement (regarding the efficacy of "paper trading") :

Ken Roberts Settles FTC Charges


For Release: March 24, 2003

An operator who used deceptive claims to market commodities, stock, real estate and other investment courses has agreed to settle Federal Trade Commission charges that his deceptive claims violated federal law. The proposed settlement would bar the defendant from misrepresenting the value of practice “paper trading” to purchasers of his investment courses and require him to disclose, clearly and conspicuously, the risks associated with investing. The FTC charged Ken Roberts and his three companies – The Ted Warren Corporation, The Ken Roberts Institute, Inc., and the Ken Roberts Company – with violating the FTC Act by using their Web sites to claim deceptively that consumers who successfully “paper trade”- or practice trade without actually investing – are more likely to profit when they engage in actual trading. According to the FTC, they also failed to disclose the risks associated with the trading techniques recommended in their investment courses. The proposed consent order would prohibit the respondents from falsely claiming that purchasers who successfully “paper trade” are likely to make significant profits when they invest funds in the market.

Investment Training Material Marketer Settles FTC Charges | Federal Trade Commission


********************

So it's a bit of a mystery what out of print book he must have been talking about if it wasn't Edward and Magees book.

I vaguely remember the 6" x 8" book being green and hardback. I remember it as mainly inspirational fiction that did not contain the actual methodology but its been too long to say anything for sure. It did serve to amp up the mystique of the method. I saw it as marketing.

Maybe Roberts bought the rights to Ted Warren's work?

 

[long]

Hmmm. The plot thickens. It appears Ted Warren is Ken Roberts own company, or one of his companies, according to this FTC violation statement (regarding the efficacy of "paper trading") :

Ken Roberts Settles FTC Charges


For Release: March 24, 2003

An operator who used deceptive claims to market commodities, stock, real estate and other investment courses has agreed to settle Federal Trade Commission charges that his deceptive claims violated federal law. The proposed settlement would bar the defendant from misrepresenting the value of practice “paper trading” to purchasers of his investment courses and require him to disclose, clearly and conspicuously, the risks associated with investing. The FTC charged Ken Roberts and his three companies – The Ted Warren Corporation, The Ken Roberts Institute, Inc., and the Ken Roberts Company – with violating the FTC Act by using their Web sites to claim deceptively that consumers who successfully “paper trade”- or practice trade without actually investing – are more likely to profit when they engage in actual trading. According to the FTC, they also failed to disclose the risks associated with the trading techniques recommended in their investment courses. The proposed consent order would prohibit the respondents from falsely claiming that purchasers who successfully “paper trade” are likely to make significant profits when they invest funds in the market.

Investment Training Material Marketer Settles FTC Charges | Federal Trade Commission


********************

So it's a bit of a mystery what out of print book he must have been talking about if it wasn't Edward and Magees book.

I vaguely remember the 6" x 8" book being green and hardback. I remember it as mainly inspirational fiction that did not contain the actual methodology but its been too long to say anything for sure. It did serve to amp up the mystique of the method. I saw it as marketing.

Maybe Roberts bought the rights to Ted Warren's work?

I no longer have the course materials. If I remember correctly the larger green book was the main book in the first course I purchased. The small Ted Warren book was included in the “advanced” course I purchased shortly after. I also think that the bigger green book told Ken’s story about meeting Ted and later acquiring the rights to his book from his widow.

A lot of people call Ken a shyster and reference the FTC charges. I don’t remember the course promising success but it definitely implied that you were more likely to be successful if you paper traded before going live. I think the charges were frivolous. Do I think that TWMPMM was the best course on futures trading? No. It was an introduction for people who had no idea what futures markets are and was a good first step for me. He also offered lots of non-trading motivational stuff. I think I bought two of those books from his book club. Now I’m wondering what he’s up to today.

 

[Good1]

I no longer have the course materials. If I remember correctly the larger green book was the main book in the first course I purchased. The small Ted Warren book was included in the “advanced” course I purchased shortly after. I also think that the bigger green book told Ken’s story about meeting Ted and later acquiring the rights to his book from his widow.

A lot of people call Ken a shyster and reference the FTC charges. I don’t remember the course promising success but it definitely implied that you were more likely to be successful if you paper traded before going live. I think the charges were frivolous. Do I think that TWMPMM was the best course on futures trading? No. It was an introduction for people who had no idea what futures markets are and was a good first step for me. He also offered lots of non-trading motivational stuff. I think I bought two of those books from his book club. Now I’m wondering what he’s up to today.

Yah not sure what he's up to but for a while, he had something of an empire built on mail order marketing. This included a brokerage firm of his own.

I didn't order the "advanced" course, so had not really heard of Ted Warren to my recollection.

Agree the paper trading charges seemed overblown. I don't think he promised what they say he did. I never expected that much from paper trading. There were bigger pitfalls in those days, including the fact you had to call your broker on the phone and verbally place orders.

This gave some kinds of brokers the opportunity to sell you some kind of trade, and it gave them information about what you were trying to accomplish. So, for example, my broker knew i was trying to find 1-2-3 set ups.

One day, the set up arrived for soybeans short. I received a phone call from a broker i have never dealt with before, the guy was practically jumping up and down with excitement about information that they just got from south America indicating the soybean crop was going to be devastated by drought. This broker also seemed to know that i was going to be using options because of a low account balance because he sought to sell me on the idea of buying calls, instead of buying puts, which i was going to do that very AM. I let him persuade me he had inside information and i changed my position...and lost my premium as soybeans went down into a year long bear market, just as the Ken Roberts course suggested it should.

In retrospect, this was my own broker toying with me, ridiculing my attempt to follow the Roberts method. Either that or they sold my phone number to a shady broker in New York who happened to know exactly what trade i intended to make that morning. It was the first and last time i ever got a phone call, cold, selling a specific position.

There were other times when my broker mentioned some other market to me beside the one i had called about. It bothered me. I also once got tripped up by a Globex market that was open overnight, but my position was unchangeable till my broker opened in the morning.

Of course, that can't be Roberts fault, but what was missing, i think, was any serious warning about what a drawdown might look like for his method. He didn't offer any kind of back testing information. He put a lot of people at risk who were undercapitalized, who didn't know how to go about generating such data.

 

[long]

Yah not sure what he's up to but for a while, he had something of an empire built on mail order marketing. This included a brokerage firm of his own.

I didn't order the "advanced" course, so had not really heard of Ted Warren to my recollection.

Agree the paper trading charges seemed overblown. I don't think he promised what they say he did. I never expected that much from paper trading. There were bigger pitfalls in those days, including the fact you had to call your broker on the phone and verbally place orders.

This gave some kinds of brokers the opportunity to sell you some kind of trade, and it gave them information about what you were trying to accomplish. So, for example, my broker knew i was trying to find 1-2-3 set ups.

One day, the set up arrived for soybeans short. I received a phone call from a broker i have never dealt with before, the guy was practically jumping up and down with excitement about information that they just got from south America indicating the soybean crop was going to be devastated by drought. This broker also seemed to know that i was going to be using options because of a low account balance because he sought to sell me on the idea of buying calls, instead of buying puts, which i was going to do that very AM. I let him persuade me he had inside information and i changed my position...and lost my premium as soybeans went down into a year long bear market, just as the Ken Roberts course suggested it should.

In retrospect, this was my own broker toying with me, ridiculing my attempt to follow the Roberts method. Either that or they sold my phone number to a shady broker in New York who happened to know exactly what trade i intended to make that morning. It was the first and last time i ever got a phone call, cold, selling a specific position.

There were other times when my broker mentioned some other market to me beside the one i had called about. It bothered me. I also once got tripped up by a Globex market that was open overnight, but my position was unchangeable till my broker opened in the morning.

Of course, that can't be Roberts fault, but what was missing, i think, was any serious warning about what a drawdown might look like for his method. He didn't offer any kind of back testing information. He put a lot of people at risk who were undercapitalized, who didn't know how to go about generating such data.

I was going through boxes of crap tonight and found the good old TWMPMM advanced commodity book.