Larry Williams

Lol so IOW we have to make him pay sumtim otherwise we look like clowns - done.

DECISION:

ON JUNE 8, 1990, NFA'S APPEALS COMMITTEE ISSUED A DECISION IN WHICH IT ACCEPTED THE SETTLEMENT TERMS NEGOTIATED BETWEEN NFA AND WILLIAMS. THE APPEALS COMMITTEE MADE NO FINDINGS AND IMPOSED A $13,000 FINE UPON WILLIAMS.
 
Imagine if he could repeat the 11,000% return just once more. That would be $121,000,000.
Hello tony.m,

I know, that would have been amazing if he could have made another 11,000% the next year.

I am curious how he made that 11,000%. Do you know?

That is VERY impressive.
 
The last chapter from his book is missing.
"Larry Williams was managing OPM during 1987 when he won the Robbins Trading Co contest. His returns for 1987 across all accounts showed a loss of $6,122,281, but his personal account that won the competition achieved a gain of $902,599."
William Gallacher's book, "Winner Take All," detailed the account of Williams's "trading." I read Gallacher's book in the '90s. In the early 2000s, and out of sheer curiosity and no other reason, I spoke with an enforcement attorney at the NFA who confirmed the numbers and the conclusion.

NFA Findings and Conclusion:

There is no question that Mr. Williams's personal trading accounts had a material effect upon his composite trading performance. The record reflects that for the first quarter of 1987, Mr. Williams's composite performance showed a loss of $6,122,281, while at the same time Mr. Williams's personal accounts experienced a gain of $902,599. The Panel finds that the fact Mr. Williams was making significant gains while managed customer accounts were suffering considerable losses would be a material fact which a potential customer would need to know in order to make a fully reasoned decision.

I addressed this matter years ago under a previous user name:

For the love of God, please read William Gallacher's "Winner Take All."

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1557385335/sr=8-1/qid=1141931990/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-8761015-3483935?_encoding=UTF8

In that book, Gallacher provides a chronology of what happened. Both Larry and Robbins Trading Co. were being investigated by the NFA.

"A large part of the NFA's complaint had to do with whether Williams ought to segregate the results of his personal trading from the results of the accounts he was handling for others. Williams claimed in his defense that the NFA's guidelines were unclear, and he may well have had a point. One disturbing fact, however, was not in dispute. During the first quarter of 1987, when the 'contest' account was appreciating from $10,000 to over $200,000, Williams' managed accounts were losing, and losing big."

He quoted the NFA's Findings and Conclusion:

"There is no question that Mr. Williams's personal trading accounts had a material effect upon his composite trading performance. The record reflects that for the first quarter of 1987, Mr. Williams's composite performance showed a loss of $6,122,281, while at the same time Mr. Williams's personal accounts experienced a gain of $902,599. The Panel finds that the fact Mr. Williams was making significant gains while managed customer accounts were suffering considerable losses would be a material fact which a potential customer would need to know in order to make a fully reasoned decision."

Both Robbins Trading Co. and Williams were fined.

What is interesting is that Mr. Williams is better known for making a million dollars during the very same period that he lost much more for his clients. But, hey, what's a little misunderstanding between friends during a time when time stamps were also a topic of discussion?

Did I mention that BOTH Williams and Robbins Trading Co. were fined? Admittedly, the fines were little more than slaps on the wrist.

It takes a special person to be able to focus only on one part of the story and make a career of it, don't you think? Evidently, no one can milk a cash cow quite like good old Larry can.
 
Some more fun reading about Mr. Williams and his seminars. These 2006 posts from another member:

The very last (apparently) of Larry Williams' seminars was written up in Trader Monthly, Oct/Nov 2005. It was held on St. Croix (that's why he does it!...) in early Nov. 2004. Here is that colorful story, in full.

Also reprinted are all 7 readers' comments, incl. a couple of noteworthy ones from the author himself, Matt Blackman, who claims serious negative editing bias, after his submission. In any case, enjoy.



Larry Williams's Last Stand

For the past five years, legendary trader Larry Williams has speculated $1 million before legions of pie-eyed disciples. Now he's pulling up the tent stakes on his seven-figure show. We snuck in to see what happens when a trading slugger takes his final cuts.

By: Matt Blackman

Issue: October/November 2005 , Page 92

It's a sultry afternoon on the island of St. Croix, in the U.S. Virgin Islands, where a man named Glenn, in khaki shorts and Tevas, strolls to the bar at the Carambola Beach Resort. He orders two Heinekens and heads back to his table, where he and a man named Cody, sporting a blue Hawaiian shirt, lean over a laptop and engage in feverish discussion, oblivious to the paradise around them.

On the laptop screen sits Glenn and Cody's obsession: a chart of the S&P 500 Index. Although fresh off their flights, they've come here for neither the babes nor the beach -- they've come to spend the next three days sitting under fluorescent lights with 50 other traders, breathing recycled air and watching 62-year-old Larry Williams trade $1 million in real time, with profits shared among the attendees.

It's called the Million-Dollar Challenge, and in the five years since Williams began hosting it, this dog-and-pony show has achieved a cultlike status, hopscotching to exotic locations around the globe and affording its participants the rare opportunity to witness a trading legend at work. This is the sixteenth Challenge for Williams since October 1999, and -- much to the chagrin of his devotees, who long ago drank Williams's Kool-Aid -- it will be the last. Williams boasts that in 15 seminars over a total of 45 trading days, he has already made $1,028,750 in profits, or more than $68,000 per Challenge. Now he's pulling up the stakes on his tent, claiming he's tired of the travel, and traders like Glenn and Cody have paid $4,500 each to watch the farewell show.

This is Glenn's first Challenge. Tall and lean, he's a part-time helicopter pilot who operates his own Bell Jet Ranger and looks the part in Serengeti Aviator sunglasses. Fairly new to the financial game, Glenn has given himself five years to learn how to trade.

Cody, stocky with broad shoulders, sports a marine-style crew cut and a military swagger. This is his sixth Williams seminar. He's had a hard time trading recently. The fact that Hurricane Ivan beat up his Florida home two months ago hasn't helped his confidence.

During a lull in the conversation about markets, Glenn asks Cody how much he's spent on programs, books and seminars since he began trading. It's an innocent question, but it catches Cody off guard. He takes a minute to do some mental calculations. Including his trading losses, Cody estimates he's down about $800,000 so far.

Larry Williams began his trading career in 1962 and has since authored eight trading books that are still in circulation. His latest, on deciphering and using Commitment of Traders reports, is due out any day now. But it was his 1987 victory in the coveted Robbins World Cup Championship of Futures Trading -- when he turned $10,000 into $1.1 million in under 12 months, a record that has yet to be broken -- that made him a household name in trading circles.

A former boxing manager and amateur archaeologist, Williams excavated his first trading fortune in the early 1970s, then went on to write about it in the aptly -- if unimaginatively -- titled "How I Made a Million Dollars Trading Commodities." Evolving into a futures-market guru (even his daughter Michelle, a novice using Dad's tricks, reportedly made $110,000 trading a few years ago), Williams says he has trained more than 200,000 traders.

His books have been translated into at least six languages and are sold worldwide. Among a lot of rookie traders, Larry Williams is big.

How big? In 2000, Williams held a Challenge in Shanghai. "When we landed at the airport, we were met by more than 100 fans, all wanting his autograph," recalls Glenn Larson, the founder of Genesis, the software platform Williams uses to trade. "Everywhere we went, we were treated like rock stars. We didn't realize why until someone showed us a copy of the Shanghai Securities News, which is like the Wall Street Journal there, with the 'Williams %R' indicator on every stock chart." Ask a group of traders what they think of Larry Williams, and you'll get a variety of answers. Some are reverential almost to the point of cult worship. Some call him a snake-oil salesman who's a better marketer than trader. Others say his systems aren't that special. Williams has heard it all. "Let's face it," he says. "It's hard to make money in markets, and there are many frustrated traders out there. Because they can't do it, they think no one can, so in their minds any system that helps traders must not work.

"You never hear people bemoan Barry Bonds's salary, saying 'If he's so rich, why is he still playing baseball?' or 'If Bill Gates is so rich, why is he still working?' But for some reason, successful traders who teach and write books attract those kinds of comments."

In 2002, while the post-bubble doom and gloom still prevailed, Williams wrote "The Right Stock at the Right Time," which predicted a glorious bull market just beyond the horizon. Tracking the best market years of the twentieth century, Williams found that the majority ended in 2's and 3's, and that years preceding a presidential election had historically been the best of any four-year period. Williams saw reason for hope. In March 2003, as reviews of the book hit the press, the market did indeed begin to climb.

Cynics note that such prognostications essentially hold a 50/50 chance of being correct -- if not better, given that the bull market that doesn't come sooner always comes later. Contrarians dismiss the sheer numerology of it all. But for the 52 traders who have come to St. Croix, such stories become chapter and verse of the gospel, tales that imbue godlike status to a man like Larry Williams. The traders want answers. They want his secrets. And they have not flown in from around the globe to see Larry Williams fail.

Day One: It's another glorious Caribbean morning, the bougainvillea-scented air wafting along on the sea breezes. But in the chilly, windowless room where the final Million-Dollar Challenge begins, the quiet is punctuated only by the sound of air-conditioning fans humming in the background. On each desk sits a spiral-bound book with more than 150 pages of typed notes, formulas and indicators, all related to futures. Williams walks in, dressed casually in a blue Hawaiian shirt and tan khaki shorts. He has an athletic build and a serious set of calves for a 62-year-old man.

He silently scans the room through wire-rimmed glasses, then welcomes the group in a soft-spoken voice that's more chaplain than type-A trader. If whispering is a ploy, it works. Like a classroom full of brown-nosers, the attendees sit up in their chairs, craning to hear his every word.

"Paul Tudor Jones averages 25 percent a year, John Henry 18 percent, and Steve Cohen has an incredible record of 50 percent per year," Williams begins. "They are the very best in the business. Yet many traders start out believing they can make 200 percent or more a year -- and that's the one major reason most of them fail. For those sorts of returns, you have to be fully invested in every trade. One or two bad trades, and you're broke." It's November 1, the day before the U.S. presidential election, and the markets are choppy. The race is close. Based on the lack of volume, most players appear to be sitting on the sidelines. Not a great day for trading -- but a great day to languidly discuss strategies.

Williams explains that, due to the lack of volatility, there are only two potential trade setups today: one to short 20 contracts of 10-year Treasury bonds at 113.17, and two S&P 500 long trades. He buys five S&P 500 contracts for a day trade and 10 more to hold overnight.

When the bonds hit his 113.17, he shorts them using a derivation of something he calls the "Oops" pattern. Simply put, it holds that most traders tend to jump on a breakout, but as soon as they realize it's a fake-out, they panic; those who recognize this can go short, then catch a ride all the way down as others run for the exits.

Or so the theory goes.

As the traders wait to see what comes of Williams's -- and, by extension, their -- positions, he explains another of his signature trades, something he calls "Blast Off."

"Monday, Thursday and Friday are my setup days, as many notable rallies have taken place the next day," he says. "Next, I look for the pattern consisting of an inside day -- one that has a lower high and higher low than the prior day. The direction of the close of the inside day doesn't really matter. The close of the day before the inside day has to close higher than the opening of that same day.

"When we have an inside day following an up-close day, it suggests that the market may be catching its breath before another up day," he continues. "If the opening on the day following the inside day is lower than the high of the inside day as well as the high of two days ago, I buy on a stop at the high two days ago."

By late afternoon, both S&P trades, which had been profitable, have dropped back to the entry price. Williams exits the day trade after missing his profit target, per his rules, for a small loss. When one participant asks why he didn't sell both, Williams is resolute: The system has not given him an exit signal on the second.

Later, during a break, an attendee named Mike, who manages a small fund, says he's impressed by Williams's loss: "Larry does what most traders are not willing to do. Even in the face of adversity, he allows the system to dictate the trade."

Fred Wenninger is 65 and wears it well, standing six-foot-two, looking like a cross between Paul Newman and Jimmy Stewart. During a break in the seminar, he stands in a corner regaling a group of admirers with his rags-to-riches tale. A former Hewlett-Packard division manager, he has been retired for seven years; he now spends his days trading.

Wenninger owns a winter home in Alva, Oklahoma, and a summer home in Spokane, Washington. He occasionally commutes between the two towing a Hughes 300C helicopter behind his motorhome in a trailer he designed himself. While on the road, he uses a high-speed two-way satellite dish to access the Internet from any point along the way. "I can surf and send e-mail. I download the Genesis data updates every night. I can trade anywhere." After trying to develop and trade systems in the mid- to late '90s on his own, it became obvious to Wenninger that he needed help when his $50,000 trading account had dwindled to less than half of what he'd started with. "Then I came across a Web site that discussed how Larry Williams traded $1 million live," he says with the effusiveness of an infomercial testimonial. "It impressed me that he put his mouth where his money was. I went to the seminar. He offers your money back if you don't feel it's worth it after attending the first morning -- and I almost asked for my money back. He was talking mostly about trading the S&P 500 futures. I'd never traded them, but I decided to stay and start trading the index futures and bonds. I've been getting a 40 percent return on my investments ever since." When prompted for details, he smiles broadly. He's clearly itching to share. "I trade well over 100 patterns, some of which I've developed, most I got from Williams's seminars and some that friends have shared with me. I've collected quite a few over the years."

Wenninger pulls out some old booklets and points to a formula: IF Next Bar Open <= Open + .5 And High > High 1 bar ago And High 1 bar ago > High 2 bars ago And High 2 bars ago > High 3 bars ago And High 3 bars ago > High 4 bars ago And Open > Open 1 bar ago And Open 1 bar ago > Open 2 bars ago And Open 2 bars ago > Open 3 bars ago And Open 3 bars ago > Open 4 bars ago And Close > Close 1 bar ago And Close 2 bars ago > Close 3 bars ago And Close 3 bars ago > Close 4 bars ago Or Close 4 bars ago > Close 5 bars ago -- Then sell limit at close.

The formula essentially predicts that after five straight days of increasing highs, opens and closes, the price will decline -- contrary to what many looking for breakouts might think. Wenninger claims it offers a win/loss ratio of 3.77, a winning percentage of 94.7 percent. So far today, Larry Williams would kill for those numbers.

Day Two: It's Election Day in the U.S., and Larry Williams makes no bones about his Republican bias. He is certain President Bush will win, even though the polls haven't opened yet.

Williams himself ran for the Senate from Montana in 1978 and 1982; Ronald Reagan campaigned for him. He lost both races, but the attendees here in St. Croix still hang on his every word as he reminisces about the Gipper. "During the campaign, we were riding in a limo together through a crowd in downtown Billings," Williams says, a far-off look in his eyes. "Ron was waving out the window, and someone in the crowd flipped him the bird. He turned to me and said, 'You know, Larry, just once I'd like to give it back to them -- but I'd be in a heap of trouble when Nancy found out.'" The room erupts. It's an easy crowd for a man bearing Ronald Reagan anecdotes.

There is, however, trading to do. At least that's the plan. Williams tells the room he's eyeing three potential new trades -- one in bonds, one in gold, one in soybeans -- but each fails to trigger in the morning.

The problem? The market's moves -- what few moves there are -- are all news-driven. Or rumor-driven. The S&P moves up eight points in the morning on a negative rumor about John Kerry. In the afternoon, it drops from 1139.5 to 1132 in five minutes on a rumor that now places Kerry in the lead. It stops Williams out of his second S&P trade for a loss.

Technical and fundamental formulas and indicators are of limited value with such light volumes. Thus far, Williams is down slightly on his S&P trades but still has one profitable trade in bonds. He's come close to making a couple of soybean trades, but they've failed to trigger. Just before the bond market closes, his exit is hit and he gets out at 113.02 for a profit of 14 ticks.

That night, Williams hosts a banquet and open bar for the group, which gives them a chance to mingle -- and compare area codes. One guy has flown in from Venezuela; there are three from Canada, one from Mexico, a number from St. Croix and a multitude from around the United States. There are pilots, lawyers, engineers, physicians, an orthodontist, a first-year college student, a full-time housewife -- and at least 20 percent are professional traders.

It's an eclectic group, but after two long days -- and very little action -- the traders are restless. By 10 p.m., most have retired to their rooms to catch the election results.

Day Three: When the markets awaken to learn that Bush has won, the S&P gaps up 16 points in the first 15 minutes -- but only those who held overnight profited. Unfortunately for Williams, his S&P trade was stopped out the day before. But rules are rules. And systems are systems. And Larry Williams lives by his systems.

By the end of day three, no one in the audience shows much interest in the outcome of the trades. They're a little hung over, a little tired and a little antsy to breathe that sweet Caribbean air. Besides, they have their books full of shiny new formulas to take home and put to the test. Hope springs eternal.

By the time Williams finishes the last day of his last Million-Dollar Challenge, he has entered a total of 10 trades. He's earned $2,900, before commissions, for a net gain of $2,059. His S&P trades have come a cropper, but he's squeezed out a bit of profit on bonds. In other words, in his final at-bat, Babe Ruth has dribbled a ground ball to second base. Granted, the wannabe traders in attendance weren't dropping $4,500 for their share of the profits. They've come to glean the magic formulas for milking money from a complicated world. And if copying the homework of the smartest kid in the class is what it takes to make it big, so be it.

Still, it's a bit ironic when several days later, Glenn, Cody, Fred and the others open their mailboxes. Inside, they discover a check for their share of Larry Williams's winnings. The amount: $18.12.

7 Comments:


· Posted by enzo vollmer - Dec 8 2005 @ 9:36 PM
LW

I dont know which to hope for - that the article got edited badly or what. larry W. has contributed so much by the books he wrote, the ideas he developed and the work he has done to help other traders and demystify the process - i cannot think of anyone who has been so generous - or has had so much said aginst him for no reason...except maybe jealosy.


· Posted by trader@goldhaven.com - Nov 5 2005 @ 1:50 PM
Matt Blackman

It is unfortunate that the magazine took the position they did and published this piece in which the tone was substantially changed from what I submitted in my final draft. I apologize to those who attended the Larry Williams seminar in St. Croix for any negative inferences in the article that was published and to Larry Williams himself for the article that appeared. While at the seminar, I spoke to about half of those who attended and everyone had nothing but good things to say about it. I also found the event both useful and enjoyable. Matt Blackman


· Posted by gmorrisadvisors - Nov 4 2005 @ 4:46 PM
Why?

I seriously doubt Matt Blackman would write a piece like this.


· Posted by trader@goldhaven.com - Oct 28 2005 @ 3:51 PM
Bias going on?

My name appears as the author of this article but I must apologize for what appeared in print. It was not my intention to write a negative piece about Larry Williams but that is clearly what appears in the magazine. I have read a number of Larry's books and was impressed after my experience in attending his St Croix Million Dollar Challenge event. I intend to find out what happened between my submission and the final article and how the article which was intended to convey the positive experience of attending William's conference was presented so negatively. Matt Blackman


· Posted by DESMOND MANNHEIM - Oct 21 2005 @ 3:34 PM
LARRY WILLIAMS

HE IS STILL A GREAT TRADER.


· Posted by leonardo - Oct 15 2005 @ 1:21 PM
Want an opinion from a "real" trader?

I've traded for a living using my own research and techniques for more than 25 years, 7 of which were trading in the "pits". From my view and personal contact with him, Larry Williams is a real trader, but a different type--- one who gets more juice from personal interaction with new traders than trading for a living or a fund. From his own words the "very best in the business" make around 20% - 50% return per year, and he choses not to compete in that arena. That's OK. He does something that very few market educators do, actually trade the systems he promotes. He may be more showman than trader sometimes, but he takes calculated positive-expectation risks and that is the ultimate name of the game. He has done research that no one before him attempted, and traded it first to prove it--- and then proved that money management is more important than the system used to attack the markets. His OOPS system has been proven statistically to be one of the most robust entry methods usable off-floor. With proper money management, you could likely make a living with it alone---staying at home in your jamies. The writer of the article did a reasonable job covering the subject considering this is a unique market niche and the needs of traders for accurate information and their willingness to go to great lengths to get it. When many of these traders experience a daily average account balance fluctuation of more than $10K, paying $4500 to a guy who might save them 50K the next year with one tip is very rational. But not to the average writer. Leonardo---


· Posted by traderkirk@hotmail.com - Oct 12 2005 @ 8:32 PM
Biased going in?

I have no opinion of Larry Williams either way. I have read some of his books but never attended a seminar. I believe most vendors are bogus but I learned a lot of the basics of trading from reading Larry's work. He may or may not be legit, but clearly the author of this article was looking to write a negative piece. Everything is slanted from that perspective, from shots at his political affiliation down to disparaging his $2k profit. I have never heard of another vendor offering to split their profits with their customers, and virtually none that actually trade in front of them. At least then you can judge for yourself if the information has any value. That may be the kind of thing this shady business needs more of. I think the author went in looking to write a hit piece and this was the best he could come up with. Mission failed, imho.
 
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A few problems I see with Larry's story is he says his Daughter followed his Hotline for trades initially then the Broker took over as she was too busy

1. Why didn't everyone else using his Hotline have a stellar performance. Good publicity for his Hotline too.

2. Why did Larry's clients lose Money while he made that huge return at the same time? Different trades, why?
 
Who remembers when the IRS was after Larry for unpaid taxes?

But not from trading profits, but from selling snakeoil seminars.
%%
LOL i remember that , long lasting battle royal with IRS.
I may have a slight bias for him, I get his emails + remember how once he called the ''v'' DOW[DIA] bottom, but i seldom trade that so, not a real big bias LOL:D:D
He also mailed me a free book , cheap self published book , not a real big book, so i dont have a real big bias for him .
SOME Key stock-ETFs market concepts from one of Larry's book \ free;
Moving Averages/
Forecasting\
When to use market orders, dont remember what he noted /i use them on exits some\
10week moving average, seldom use that; but i use a 50+ 200 dma , to each his or her ........[Delayed EDIT/ IBD use$ 10 week ma some]
He has titled one something like why not to use yesterdays close;
i use that close , monthly close all the time...................................................................
So may not get tax advice from him; but he has some wise help + God bless him + family.
Dave Ramsey like funds, 5 funds Real[royal] Estate + limits single stock selection to 10% max AUM .........................................................................................
 
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Lol so IOW we have to make him pay sumtim otherwise we look like clowns - done.

DECISION:

ON JUNE 8, 1990, NFA'S APPEALS COMMITTEE ISSUED A DECISION IN WHICH IT ACCEPTED THE SETTLEMENT TERMS NEGOTIATED BETWEEN NFA AND WILLIAMS. THE APPEALS COMMITTEE MADE NO FINDINGS AND IMPOSED A $13,000 FINE UPON WILLIAMS.
As I understand it, the fine was largely imposed because Williams did not segregate the results of his personal trading from the accounts he was managing for others. That was evidently proven because the fine was imposed. However, against the background of his account making money while his clients simultaneously suffered significantly larger losses and without proper account segregation suggests that something didn't quite pass the smell test. They could not actually prove wrongdoing, but the numbers spoke for themselves. So much so, that the NFA was impelled to warn potential investors in their findings.

I don't recall Williams ever achieving notable personal trading performance while NOT also simultaneously handling other people's money. Perhaps I am mistaken and someone can correct me. But it would appear that his personal trading performance is better reflected in the results posted by late apex, which I reposted earlier in this thread.
 
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