Lack of father figures in trading

[Q3D]

I am responsible for who I am - not my parents..., not my Family..., not whatever life throws at me..., and not because I didn't get enough hugs..., my snotty nose wiped..., or my ass powdered - as a child

RN

Tell that to the women who can't advance in the corporate world due to father-son nepotism, or to the many African Americans without father figures due to discriminatory mass-incarceration policies. The same problem of lack of positive role models applies in the day trading culture.

How do you explain the high frequency of shared father and son occupations/employers?

Starting with their first jobs as teenagers, Americans’ professional lives have a lot to do with those of their parents: According to U.S. Census data, 22 percent of working American men whose fathers were present during their teenage years will, by time they turn 30, have worked for the same employer, at the same time, as their dads. For women that figure is 13 percent. (Of course, this isn’t an American phenomenon. In Denmark, 28 percent of sons have worked for an employer that appeared on their dads’ résumé around the time they turn 30. In Canada, it’s 40 percent.)

Even though more than one-fifth of those working American men under 30 have worked alongside their fathers, that percentage varies depending on income. If a man’s father is in the highest 10 percent of American earners, he’s more than 1.5 times as likely to share an employer than if his father is in the lowest 10 percent. When it comes to the likelihood that a father will work with his son, there’s a significant earnings gap.

Ultimately, the fear that lives will be “determined by the accident of birth” should outweigh the hope that nepotism comes with the incidental economic efficiencies Bellow outlines. But when it comes to solutions, some sociologists have thrown up their hands. “It is troubling that [a child’s class outcome] is deeply rooted in family dynamics and may require unacceptably intrusive policy to root it out,” wrote Grusky and his co-authors. “Although our results provide some insight, then, into why contemporary efforts to equalize opportunity have underperformed, they do not necessarily lead us to any wholesale rethinking of those efforts.”

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/06/nepotism-mobility-same-jobs-fathers/395567/

 

[wrbtrader]

Tell that to the women who can't advance in the corporate world due to father-son nepotism, or to the many African Americans without father figures due to discriminatory mass-incarceration policies. The same problem of lack of positive role models applies in the day trading culture.

How do you explain the high frequency of shared father and son occupations/employers?

Starting with their first jobs as teenagers, Americans’ professional lives have a lot to do with those of their parents: According to U.S. Census data, 22 percent of working American men whose fathers were present during their teenage years will, by time they turn 30, have worked for the same employer, at the same time, as their dads. For women that figure is 13 percent. (Of course, this isn’t an American phenomenon. In Denmark, 28 percent of sons have worked for an employer that appeared on their dads’ résumé around the time they turn 30. In Canada, it’s 40 percent.)

Even though more than one-fifth of those working American men under 30 have worked alongside their fathers, that percentage varies depending on income. If a man’s father is in the highest 10 percent of American earners, he’s more than 1.5 times as likely to share an employer than if his father is in the lowest 10 percent. When it comes to the likelihood that a father will work with his son, there’s a significant earnings gap.

Ultimately, the fear that lives will be “determined by the accident of birth” should outweigh the hope that nepotism comes with the incidental economic efficiencies Bellow outlines. But when it comes to solutions, some sociologists have thrown up their hands. “It is troubling that [a child’s class outcome] is deeply rooted in family dynamics and may require unacceptably intrusive policy to root it out,” wrote Grusky and his co-authors. “Although our results provide some insight, then, into why contemporary efforts to equalize opportunity have underperformed, they do not necessarily lead us to any wholesale rethinking of those efforts.”

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/06/nepotism-mobility-same-jobs-fathers/395567/

The above has nothing to do with trading but you did say something that was interesting and it does involve trading...

The same problem of lack of positive role models applies in the day trading culture.

There are role models but maybe for some odd reason you made a decision to not use such.

For example, students in college that want to be a professional trader have access to mentors and internships as their role models. Yet, lets pretend you didn't go the college route and instead decided to be a retail trader wherever it is that you live. Did you make an effort to me other traders in your area ? Did you contact CQG or join their forums to meet others in your area that uses CQG ?

I'm not talking about online buddies or some online guru. In contrast, I'm talking about in person discussions, in person meetings with a role model...just talking to those in the same situation as you are so that you don't feel alone in the game of trading.

Then if you get to know a few very well...you can arrange trading sessions together even if you don't trade the same thing as others do. This may help to take some of the psychological pressure you have currently going on in your life...giving you enough breathing room to make better financial decisions. Heck you may even get lucky and meet someone that's a profitable trader and you're able to view such with your own eyes.

In contrast, most professional traders on wall street did (still do) have role models but unfortunately most retail traders do not although as noted above that can be fixed unless you live on some mountain in a remote area using satellite.

 

[profitlocker]

Trading is only about taking another's money - through hook or crook - period

This is hilarious. FISH ON

 

[profitlocker]

The SEC instituting the pattern day-trader rule requiring $25,000 in capital in 2001 makes it clear that there were a lot of exploiters preying on lower and lower-middle class people who never had the appropriate education and/or capital requirements to start day trading, we need more such interventation and criminal prosecution of some of the worst of these exploiters

You kidding me? What kind of self-entitled mentality is this? No one put a gun to their head and robbed them. I was the prey before PDT was implemented and take full responsibility for it

 

[Humpy]

There is an old saying that fools are soon parted from their money.

 

[Q3D]

All the positive traders I've met online, never met any in person, all had identities outside of trading or successful husbands as the source of their pride.

As a career failed trader without a previous respectable career I analyze society and trading gurus a lot. Society sets up most people either for failure or success, based on the instincts highlighted in the above article. Trading gurus exploit the lack of positive role models in this field and the hierarchical nature of society to subconsciously suggest they have the answers, they do not.

Discretionary traders don't need these gurus, everything needed to trade profitably can be learned with no money given to one person at the top, paying a guru will only contribute to the corrupt and sociopathic culture of day trading. Individual observation, group observation, and free-of-charge discussions on observations/patterns and psychological strategies are all that is needed to develop as a trader and deal with the most important part of trading which gurus never mention, the social/psychological.

 

[Redneck]

Watch things happen...., Make things happen..., Wonder what the fuck happened

Tell that to the women who can't advance in the corporate world due to father-son nepotism,

This would hold true for any man.., or woman - NOT the child of the head jackass in charge

or to the many African Americans without father figures due to discriminatory mass-incarceration policies.

Setting aside prejudice exists - it does..., and many blacks.., browns..., yellows..., and even whites - have suffered from it

People make decisions - people are held accountable for the consequences of those decisions

Holds for parents..., holds for the children of those parents

The same problem of lack of positive role models applies in the day trading culture.

There is no socially redeeming quality with regard to trading

We make PnLs - by taking other's money - or allowing other's to take our money - that is all

==============

You need a role model / wish to be a role model - take the money made and do something with it..., make a difference..., become a big brother / big sister..., join an organization where role models exist

How do you explain the high frequency of shared father and son occupations/employers?

Why does it need explaining

Anyone is free to start a business..., get an education..., improve their stature in life

Work their ass off and make something of their self

Or not

Tis always a choice

RN

 

[wrbtrader]

All the positive traders I've met online, never met any in person, all had identities outside of trading or successful husbands as the source of their pride.

As a career failed trader without a previous respectable career I analyze society and trading gurus a lot. Society sets up most people either for failure or success, based on the instincts highlighted in the above article. Trading gurus exploit the lack of positive role models in this field and the hierarchical nature of society to subconsciously suggest they have the answers, they do not.

Discretionary traders don't need these gurus, everything needed to trade profitably can be learned with no money given to one person at the top, paying a guru will only contribute to the corrupt and sociopathic culture of day trading. Individual observation, group observation, and free-of-charge discussions on observations/patterns and psychological strategies are all that is needed to develop as a trader and deal with the most important part of trading which gurus never mention, the social/psychological.

The job you selected is called trading. There's no brotherhood...the goal is to put on a trade and take money from someone else. Its that simple. Do you remember your last profitable trade ? Did you feel like you were preying on someone, did you feel like you took advantage of that person ? Seriously, you keep talking about gurus preying on the disadvantage like "at risk families" and now you're suggesting that gurus are preying on "traders without positive role models" as if you're feeling guilty about something like being a father that has abandon his kids (making them at risk) and a father without a positive role model...you being a victim to some guru that caused all your problems via your suggestion they should be arrested.

Why can't you see the irony or hypocrisy in what you say while you yourself is trying to be a profitable trader...someone that takes money from others.

Therefore, the next time you put on a trade and if you truly believe that crap you're talking about gurus and society taking advantage of "at risk families" or taking advantage of "traders without a positive role model...

If your trade results as a profit...you just took money from "at risk families" and from "traders without a positive role model" because they were on the other side of your profitable trades.

Note: You can not argue they are not on the other side of your trades because you've already convinced yourself they are involved in trading. Also, you've implied how superior algorithms are. Therefore, it can not be algorithms you took money from...that only leaves those at risk families and traders without positive role models on the other side of your profitable trades whenever you have a profitable trade...right ?

How do you feel about that ? Think about it carefully. What if that profitable trade was money somebody needed to feed their family (at risk family), pay the mortgage on their house to keep it from going into foreclosure, money they need to make this month student loan payment to keep the government from garnishing their wages at their job or money they needed to pay and so on. considering you just took money from someone most likely like yourself ?

For you to come here and complain about the stuff you're complaining about...do you even realize you're a hypocrite and that you should not be calling yourself a trader (someone that profits via taking money from other traders that loose money).

Simply, you have some serious psychological conflicts going on in your head and those conflicts most likely are impacting your ability to be a succcessful trader...a trader that consistently takes money from other traders. Think carefully about that. In fact, if you get lucky enough to win the lottery one day...let me know how you feel knowing that many "at risk people" play the lottery. Test your integrity...give it all back to "at risk families" that live near you.

By the way, the below quote by you is an absolute lie. There are well known psychologists/part-time traders that specifically deals which such and they are gurus. For example, Dr. Brett Steenbarger and many others like him along with the fact there are many forums with active "trader psychology" sections like ET...free of charge. Seriously, Baron (ET owner) didn't charge you a penny to start this thread in the "Psychology" section. The problem is this for you...nobody is going to freely help you with your psychological issues especially if they know about your views on trading.

For example, gurus do discuss it and I've seen several give you advice here at this forum. Yet, you don't listen now do you ?

Individual observation, group observation, and free-of-charge discussions on observations/patterns and psychological strategies are all that is needed to develop as a trader and deal with the most important part of trading which gurus never mention, the social/psychological.

 

[Q3D]

The job you selected is called trading. There's no brotherhood...the goal is to put on a trade and take money from someone else. Its that simple. Do you remember your last profitable trade ? Did you feel like you were preying on someone, did you feel like you took advantage of that person ? Seriously, you keep talking about gurus preying on the disadvantage like "at risk families" and now you're suggesting that gurus are preying on "traders without positive role models" as if you're feeling guilty about something like being a father that has abandon his kids (making them at risk) and a father without a positive role model...you being a victim to some guru that caused all your problems via your suggestion they should be arrested.

Why can't you see the irony or hypocrisy in what you say while you yourself is trying to be a profitable trader...someone that takes money from others.

Therefore, the next time you put on a trade and if you truly believe that crap you're talking about gurus and society taking advantage of "at risk families" or taking advantage of "traders without a positive role model...

If your trade results as a profit...you just took money from "at risk families" and from "traders without a positive role model" because they were on the other side of your profitable trades.

Note: You can not argue they are not on the other side of your trades because you've already convinced yourself they are involved in trading. Also, you've implied how superior algorithms are. Therefore, it can not be algorithms you took money from...that only leaves those at risk families and traders without positive role models on the other side of your profitable trades whenever you have a profitable trade...right ?

How do you feel about that ? Think about it carefully. What if that profitable trade was money somebody needed to feed their family (at risk family), pay the mortgage on their house to keep it from going into foreclosure, money they need to make this month student loan payment to keep the government from garnishing their wages at their job or money they needed to pay and so on. considering you just took money from someone most likely like yourself ?

For you to come here and complain about the stuff you're complaining about...do you even realize you're a hypocrite and that you should not be calling yourself a trader (someone that profits via taking money from other traders that loose money).

Simply, you have some serious psychological conflicts going on in your head and those conflicts most likely are impacting your ability to be a succcessful trader...a trader that consistently takes money from other traders. Think carefully about that. In fact, if you get lucky enough to win the lottery one day...let me know how you feel knowing that many "at risk people" play the lottery. Test your integrity...give it all back to "at risk families" that live near you.

By the way, the below quote by you is an absolute lie. There are well known psychologists/part-time traders that specifically deals which such and they are gurus. For example, Dr. Brett Steenbarger and many others like him along with the fact there are many forums with active "trader psychology" sections like ET...free of charge. Seriously, Baron (ET owner) didn't charge you a penny to start this thread in the "Psychology" section. The problem is this for you...nobody is going to freely help you with your psychological issues especially if they know about your views on trading.

For example, gurus do discuss it and I've seen several give you advice here at this forum. Yet, you don't listen now do you ?

Please go to hell, you have no business speaking with such assumed authority, as though you can infer my motives and know what is an absolute lie and what is a difference of opinion or perception. Steenbarger isn't a guru, if you read his works you would know he was not consistently profitable at day trading.

Gurus tend to overlook the role of psychology and desocialization and its affect on traders, that's my opinion, I don't care what you think.

However I would like it if you buggered off.

 

[wrbtrader]

Please go to hell, you have no business speaking with such assumed authority, as though you can infer my motives and know what is an absolute lie and what is a difference of opinion or perception. Steenbarger isn't a guru, if you read his works you would know he was not consistently profitable at day trading.

Gurus tend to overlook the role of psychology and desocialization and its affect on traders, that's my opinion, I don't care what you think.

However I would like it if you buggered off.

Based upon your own words about your trading problems...it sounds like you're already in some kind of hell.

Your motives or hidden agenda is obvious to everyone including myself. You try to sit there and be a trader that attempts to be a profitable trader and to accomplish such...you'll need to take money from other traders...traders on the other side of your trades. In fact, if one day you get good at it and you have some kind'uv an edge...you become your own hypocrite...someone that preys on other traders. That's the irony in your story and it obviously is causing you enough conflict that you can't even see how its sabotaging you considering at this forum you have consistently attack gurus via stating they are "preying" on others...including your recent comparison to prostitution.

Reminder, since your arrival to this forum...you've gone on the attack. Here are some of your recent attacks (very hostile on your part) to other ET members: you can't argue cogently, your ugly avatar, two facedness, predatory, subtly sadistic, socially darwinistic agenda, prostitution, traders lack father figures, traders from at risk families.

Dr. Brett Steenbarger is one of the biggest psychology trading gurus out there...top 10 list and has written many books and online articles about the psychological aspects of trading. He doesn't need to be profitable anymore nor is he require to trade anymore. He just needs to know his stuff about psychology and he has the academic background in such and the professional work experience about such (see bio below).

In fact, you can provide proof to contradict me via naming other psychology gurus that's more important than Steenbarger. I can only name three.

As a reminder, you should stop lying that the gurus do not talk about psychology and you should stop lying that there's no place to freely do such considering the fact that Baron (ET owner) isn't charging you or any one else to talk about the psychological aspects of trading at this forum. In fact, I've seen at least 3 traders at this forum give you trading advice and psychology advice. Guess what, they are gurus and I say that because many ET members calls them "gurus". Seriously, can't you see the fact that you've posted this thread in the psychology section while complaining you're not getting any free shared advice about the psychology aspects of trading...wake up and read what people are telling you.

How did you react to them ? You blew them off or resorted to trying to looking down on them via attacking their soul as a trader. That's more irony from you which is why you have an agenda and you're stuck in some place you don't know how to escape. As you can see, I don't need to tell you to "go to hell"....you're already there.

If you don't care what I think, stay in that hell that you've put yourself in and put me on ignore so that you can no longer see someone that's calling you out for your lies. I recommend you contact Dr. Brett Steenbarger for some advice and I'm sure he can direct you to another professional in the business of psychology considering he recently stated he does not work with retail traders. You have problems as you stated yourself in another thread via implying you're near the end of the rope. That's a ton of pressure you're currently in and your constant venting via comparing trading to negative aspects of life...its alarming.

You need to stop trading for awhile, find something else so that you can get income flowing again and then get professional psychological help. Its the only solution out of your problems.

Dr. Brett Steenbarger, the dude is an expert (a guru) on psychology of trading and below is his bio. By the way, he use to post here at ET in the past a long time ago and freely gave advice but got tired of the jerks at this forum. Simply, he stopped posting at this forum.

Brett N. Steenbarger, Ph.D. has been actively involved in the financial markets since the late 1970s. He has served as Director of Trader Development for Kingstree Trading, LLC in Chicago and currently consults with traders in a number of professional trading organizations. He is also Clinical Associate Professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at SUNY Upstate Medical University in Syracuse, NY. A clinical psychologist and active trader, writer, and researcher for the past 20 years, Brett is the author of Enhancing Trader Performance (Wiley, 2006); The Psychology of Trading (Wiley; 2003); and numerous articles on trading psychology for print and online financial publications. His book chapters on brief psychotherapy can be found in such reference works as The Psychologist's Desk Reference (Oxford University Press, 1998), Encyclopedia of Psychotherapy (Academic Press, 2002), Clinical Strategies for Becoming a Master Psychotherapist (Academic Press, 2006), and the forthcoming editions of Kaplan & Sadock's Comprehensive Textbook of Psychiatry and The Handbook of Clinical Psychology. His coedited book, The Art and Science of the Brief Psychotherapies (American Psychiatric Publishing, 2004), has been selected as a core training text for psychiatry residency programs.

In July, 2004, Dr. Steenbarger stepped down from his medical school faculty position and began intensive work with professional traders at Kingstree Trading, where he also coordinated their training program for new traders. In 2006, he moved his work with traders to a part-time basis in order to pursue modeling research, his own trading, and the writing of his book on trader performance. Drawing upon an intensive research program that began in 1998, he has created a number of unique measures of market trend, momentum, and institutional activity designed to aid short-term traders. These measures--and the trading strategies derived from them--have been chronicled daily in the Trading Psychology Weblog and the TraderFeed blog. Most recently, he has served as a presenter in a number of training events sponsored by the Chicago Mercantile Exchange and other futures exchanges.

Dr. Steenbarger resides in Naperville, IL with his wife of 22 years, Margie, and their two children, Devon and Macrae. He grew up in Canton, Ohio, receiving his B.S. from Duke University in 1976 and his Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology from the University of Kansas in 1982. Dr. Steenbarger limits his practice to traders in hedge fund, investment bank, and proprietary trading group settings,