KwikPOP
- Thread starter Yannis
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Since my last post, I have watched the live demo they offer and saw 4 perfect trade setups. Looks promising
All you have to do to evaluate trading vendor such as KiwkPOP is just look at their material. Two things are blatantly clear to me (besides the bad HTML):
1. I didn't see any hypothetical results. Even the bad system vendors post hypothetical results. If this system rocks and rolls why couldn't they post even some curve fitted hypothetical results to entice new customers? Is the system that bad? Oh wait, it's just a "set of tools" (that happen to give you a buy/sell signal) not a pure system.
2. Take a look at each and every one of the sample charts. See anything familiar? Yes, they are all long range trend days. There are many systems/techniques both objective/systematic/fully discretionary that do very well on long range trend days or wide range days with high swings up and down. Any momentum-related or even MA/crossover-type systems does quite well on these days.
The trick in designating a good short-term day trade system is to be able to make money every day. If I knew in advance which days would be trend days or wide range day I'd be richer than Bill Gates.
1. I didn't see any hypothetical results. Even the bad system vendors post hypothetical results. If this system rocks and rolls why couldn't they post even some curve fitted hypothetical results to entice new customers? Is the system that bad? Oh wait, it's just a "set of tools" (that happen to give you a buy/sell signal) not a pure system.
2. Take a look at each and every one of the sample charts. See anything familiar? Yes, they are all long range trend days. There are many systems/techniques both objective/systematic/fully discretionary that do very well on long range trend days or wide range days with high swings up and down. Any momentum-related or even MA/crossover-type systems does quite well on these days.
The trick in designating a good short-term day trade system is to be able to make money every day. If I knew in advance which days would be trend days or wide range day I'd be richer than Bill Gates.
Dottom,
Past results, hypothetical or not, are no relevant here. KwikPop does not give you trading signals, it just helps you evaluate the situation and make your own trading decisions.
You may ask then "why do I need it?"
The answer is that their collection of regular and proprietary indicators, and their way of packaging and presenting them is, imo, superior to most other similar stuff out there. I like it, you may not.
Someone else may want a system that gives better defined, and proven successful, clear entry and exit signals. That's not me, the search for a HG is very tiring. Better, again imo, to learn to trade yourself than to rely on black/gray boxes of some sort to make trading decisions for you.
Having said that, smart indicators and other decision support (as opposed to decision making) tools can be useful to some of us. That's where KP's niche seems to be.
Your other point, trending vs range-bound days and trading techniques, is also a well known challenge. Here it depends on the degree of trending vs being range-bound. Better tools allow you to make money in days where you would have lost money without them. By that I mean every trending day can be seen as range boud from a given distance and every range-bound day can be seen as having exploitable trends within it. It is a matter of degree and perspective.
Although I'mvery new to it, KP seems to be able to help traders make something out of a, otherwise, nothing day. Make sense?
Past results, hypothetical or not, are no relevant here. KwikPop does not give you trading signals, it just helps you evaluate the situation and make your own trading decisions.
You may ask then "why do I need it?"
The answer is that their collection of regular and proprietary indicators, and their way of packaging and presenting them is, imo, superior to most other similar stuff out there. I like it, you may not.
Someone else may want a system that gives better defined, and proven successful, clear entry and exit signals. That's not me, the search for a HG is very tiring. Better, again imo, to learn to trade yourself than to rely on black/gray boxes of some sort to make trading decisions for you.
Having said that, smart indicators and other decision support (as opposed to decision making) tools can be useful to some of us. That's where KP's niche seems to be.
Your other point, trending vs range-bound days and trading techniques, is also a well known challenge. Here it depends on the degree of trending vs being range-bound. Better tools allow you to make money in days where you would have lost money without them. By that I mean every trending day can be seen as range boud from a given distance and every range-bound day can be seen as having exploitable trends within it. It is a matter of degree and perspective.
Although I'mvery new to it, KP seems to be able to help traders make something out of a, otherwise, nothing day. Make sense?
You say they are only selling an indicator, not a system. I say if the indicator is any good show me a system with some results.
You say their tool should be used as part of an overall trading approach, perhaps involving discretionary criteria. But look at what the KwikPOP FAQ says:
Kwik*POP is an automated program designed to day trade the NASDAQ & S & P Futures Contracts
Kwik*POP will only indicate when to trade
For a buy signal KP900 MUST CROSS ABOVE KP115 and KPFast104. Until that happens we sit on the sidelines. For a sell signal we need KP900 to DROP BELOW KP115 and KPFast104.
We buy on BLUE BARS and we sell on RED BARS.
There are some other conditions listed, but the point is if the system can indicate when to trade (including trigger bars and stop placements), then why not show me a simple system with some simple entry/exit criteria to demonstrate that these "filters" do indeed give an edge?
What happens if I buy whenever the indicator says "it's okay to buy" and sell whenever the indicator says "it is okay to sell"? Surely if the odds are in my favor it would show a positive expectation doing that and applying their exit strategy?
My point is every other vendor shows hypothetical results (which themselves need to be questioned), but KwikPOP doesn't even go that far. System or not, if they offer a 100% mechanical tool, they should show how it works in a 100% mechanical system with hypothetical results.
Why don't they post charts for every KwikPOP signal for every trading day for the past 30 or 60 days? Rather than just select a few long trend, large swing days that any average day trader would have made money? I'm not being facetious with "any average day trader" what I mean is if you look at the results of all the prop firms on these long trend days or large swing days, the "top 30" and "average win" numbers for those firms are many times more the average day.
btw, they claim you can make $200-$600 per day. Seems they could just not sell the tool and trade it.
If a vendor is going to claim how much money you can make per day using their method, then they must have some set of hypothetical results to base that number on.
Look at the con artists at Traders International. Their method is not 100% mechanical. It is subjective (they give you two indicators and "rules" on how to interpret them). Yet they still produce hypothetical results with 20-20 hindsight. Don't get me wrong, I have many problems with their hypothetical results, but the point is at least they went through the effort to put a stake in the ground and produce results from which you can start an analysis.
The KwikPop people don't even go that far.
Let me put it another way. By what measure can I judge the potential benefits of this indicator or filter or system or whatever it is called? Will they provide 3 months worth of charts so I can review how well I could've followed the signal at the hard-right edge? Don't tell me to try the free demo. There are too many chatroom con games that say "just try our free trial". (Not chatroom bashing, as there are some good ones out there, I'm referring to the bad ones that hook people in with the free trial ala the old sports picks scheme.)
If a vendor is going to claim how much money you can make per day using their method, then they must have some set of hypothetical results to base that number on.
Look at the con artists at Traders International. Their method is not 100% mechanical. It is subjective (they give you two indicators and "rules" on how to interpret them). Yet they still produce hypothetical results with 20-20 hindsight. Don't get me wrong, I have many problems with their hypothetical results, but the point is at least they went through the effort to put a stake in the ground and produce results from which you can start an analysis.
The KwikPop people don't even go that far.
Let me put it another way. By what measure can I judge the potential benefits of this indicator or filter or system or whatever it is called? Will they provide 3 months worth of charts so I can review how well I could've followed the signal at the hard-right edge? Don't tell me to try the free demo. There are too many chatroom con games that say "just try our free trial". (Not chatroom bashing, as there are some good ones out there, I'm referring to the bad ones that hook people in with the free trial ala the old sports picks scheme.)
Originally posted by dottom
Kwik*POP is an automated program designed to day trade the NASDAQ & S & P Futures Contracts
Kwik*POP will only indicate when to trade
For a buy signal KP900 MUST CROSS ABOVE KP115 and KPFast104. Until that happens we sit on the sidelines. For a sell signal we need KP900 to DROP BELOW KP115 and KPFast104.
We buy on BLUE BARS and we sell on RED BARS.
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Dottom,
First, don't forget that I don't work for them. The KP system is offered to everybody. I liked it enough to buy it and am in the process of trying it out. You may choose differently and I wish you good luck.
Now about the quotes you posted:
My guess is that in the first quote "automated" system is the salesman's version of a "computer" or "software" system. I wouldn't have said it this way, but here it is.
The second quote does not ring a bell for me - it may have been taken out of context. This system is just a collection of indicators, it 'indicates" things all day long.
The third and fourth quotes are the key. If you adopt the templates that the developer recommends for beginners (and you don't have to if you know how to trade on your own) then these are necessary BUT NOT SUFFICIENT conditions. It will take a lot of individual judgment in real time, in addition to meeting these conditions, to place a trade, and the KP developer will be the first to admit that. Behind this fact, which is plainly stated in several places at their website, is the reality that they cannot really automate it, they cannot make it into a black box which would then deliver unambiguous signals for everyone to implement. KP is way too complex for that, and that's a key reason that I like it.
Bottom line my friend is that the real information we have at this point is so limited, that we can argue here all day. And, although I come from a long line of lawyers, I don't like to argue. I wanted to find out if this tool is for me and I bought it. I like it, but I'm still kicking its tires and trading only a single contract with it. Judging from my preliminary results, it is highly likely that I will be soon trading a good amount of money with it.
You can do the same thing I am doing or wait for a better assessment from me or someone else, or follow a different path altogether. Take care, good trading
Dottom,
I think you can make more than $600 per day - it all depends on you and your skills, not to forget the capital you are willing to put to risk.
As far as the TI method is concerned (I also have that one and I like it a lot) what they post is the "maximum" one could make. Their method is more "prescriptive" than the methods suggested by the KP people, plus TI is a much bigger concern, with more people around. Not to mention, they sell a much more expensive product.
Calling them "con artists" is unfair, imo - they have dealt with me and my friends very honestly and openly, and they have delivered good value for their price.
The KP demo is exactly what you are looking for: not a product demo in itself but a permission to join them on Hotcomm and see the system in operation in real time. Try it! (but don't blame me if you are not satisfied with it - you seem to be the "discerning" or "difficult" or "kvetching," as they say in New York, customer type )
I think you can make more than $600 per day - it all depends on you and your skills, not to forget the capital you are willing to put to risk.
As far as the TI method is concerned (I also have that one and I like it a lot) what they post is the "maximum" one could make. Their method is more "prescriptive" than the methods suggested by the KP people, plus TI is a much bigger concern, with more people around. Not to mention, they sell a much more expensive product.
Calling them "con artists" is unfair, imo - they have dealt with me and my friends very honestly and openly, and they have delivered good value for their price.
The KP demo is exactly what you are looking for: not a product demo in itself but a permission to join them on Hotcomm and see the system in operation in real time. Try it! (but don't blame me if you are not satisfied with it - you seem to be the "discerning" or "difficult" or "kvetching," as they say in New York, customer type
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