Krugman: The Third Depression

Quote from Kassz007:

The G20 does not need to be saved, only certain countries within the G20.

If you cannot see how the USA, in massive debt, will certainly default should deflation take hold, then nothing I say anyways will convince you that deflation is the real problem.

Given the current state of soverign debt in the world, deflation is NOT an option. Unless, of course, you don't mind anarchy when so many countries default.

So Kassz007, when can we expect the purchase of your next big ticket item ? :)

Here´s a humble proposal :

aston-martin-one-77-front-quarter-main.jpg


:p
 
Quote from BVM88:

Because the money that was borrowed at ridiculously low rates in Japan and invested in the US, Australia, etc, is heading back home.

Well not exactly because there never was any great amount of money, only leverage at say 100:1 or more.

Yes the carry trade is unwinding, but the outcome of this action is deleverage,
with hardly any repatriation of funds.

Frankly this is the story of the world in this moment as it reduces debit and the lucky/clever people and companies sideline cash.

The TARP funds plus other stimuli should have the economy growing at a steady 4% by now, but when the BS clears the real growth is zero to negative.

And so, since that action did not work, US gov and Fed are going to repeat the same action and pray for a different result this time.

This mess will run on for years and years and at the first hint of genuine inflation the cash holders will begin buying again ... but what will they buy?
 
Quote from Martinghoul:

Why? Japan has been and still is running a reasonably large trade surplus. IMHO, US, in a fundamental sense and based on numbers alone, should be much more of a concern to you.

It is, hence my massive short position on U.S. equity markets. But there have been plenty of folks over the years who came up with all sorts of explanations as to why something can continue indefinitely, yet it never does, there is always a tipping point or turning point. This time will not be different with Japan, regardless of the timeline.


As soon as I start classifying a participant of any mkt I trade as a manipulator, I go on holiday. I just don't feel that labeling things is constructive, so to me all the forces in the mkt are natural. I believe it's a much healthier way of looking at things, especially given that I can place bets on the actions of the so-called "manipulators".

So then it's just word semantics. The actions and consequences are what they are, regardless of how you choose to label them.

Sure thing... If I were you, I would question who's gonna be doing the leading and who the following.

Well, given how Japan has already suffered through 20 years of deflation and here in the U.S. we're just beginning our saga with it, I'll stick with my assessment. See you on the other side...:cool:
 
Quote from jjf:



This mess will run on for years and years and at the first hint of genuine inflation the cash holders will begin buying again ... but what will they buy?

In terms of direction I see things much the same way, but who knows what will happen next? With Japan, the carry trade may start over? The Japanese may be able to avoid their day of reckoning by seriously addressing their debt problems as they've indicated recently: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/asia_pacific/10372417.stm ?

Japan's government however cannot continue adding debt to its balance sheet as it has done without risking a run on the yen at some future point - this I believe. Having said that, like you, I'm not betting on inflation at this stage, so I'm almost entirely in cash, which includes yen.
 
Quote from MKTrader:

Oh please. Only in some Keynesiot, back-asswards world. Krugman was absolutely 100% dead wrong about housing, the Fed, etc. leading up to the crisis.

"To fight this recession the Fed needs more than a snapback; it needs soaring household spending to offset moribund business investment. And to do that, as Paul McCulley of Pimco put it, Alan Greenspan needs to create a housing bubble to replace the Nasdaq bubble."

- Paul Krugman, Dubya’s Double Dip, August 2nd, 2002


Compare to:

"Congress should act to remove taxpayer support from the housing GSEs before the bubble bursts and taxpayers are once again forced to bail out investors who were misled by foolish government interference in the market. I therefore hope this committee will soon stand up for American taxpayers and investors by acting on my Free Housing Market Enhancement Act."

- Ron Paul in the House Financial Services Committee, September 10, 2003

/thread

I know where your going with this but there's no way to get rid of the Fed. The banks run the financial system; the Fed is nothing more than the puppet.

Real growth in the US probably stopped back in 1996 as the tech bubble created created an illusion of extraordinary growth and a new economy. After that crashed, people's homes became the ATM of choice. Now with that avenue shutdown the Fed needs another bubble because the banks need to find ways to pay their bigwigs large bonuses.

If the austerity plan is carried out and there is no more bubble times, then the market crashes back down to where the tech and housing bubbles found themselves, the 1996 levels on the S&P.

It is kind of pathetic a country relies on the wealth effect for growth.
 
If depression simply means that savers outnumber the willy-nilly spenders, than that is a good thing IMHO. So far, we've been a consumer nation. We need to buckle down and learn how to save.

It's time to press that RESET button!
 
Quote from achilles28:

I'm quite well versed with the impacts of both outcomes, thanks.

What you don't get is inflation is even worse than a deflationary scenerio. A currency crisis destroys incomes and GDP even more so than deflation. Deflation always sets-in after inflation. So with inflation, you fuck the currency, then get the dreaded deflation after, in spite of all that. Very bad move. And it's exactly where the G20 eggheads appear to be driving us. Why? For political expediency. Career politicians know their half-life gets decimated if they let a depression take hold. So, they'll just print and print until the market finally gives up, and commodities go berzerk. Enter your salvation - 500$ oil, 10$ bread, 15$ ground beef, and wage controls!! mmmmmmmmm We'll still get the riots, btw. They might do price controls. But then, we'll get shortages. Just like some shitty-ass third world country with no food on the shelves or gas in the station. Profit-motivated owners have no incentive to stock shelves with products they take a big loss on. What of your inflationary utopia then?

My inflationary utopia? I don't want inflation either, but it's a hell of a lot better than deflation. By the way, what you're describing in the quoted post is hyper inflation, not inflation. Why you seem to the think hyper-inflation is inevitable is beyond me, especially given the debt levels around the world. There is absolutely zero evidence that hyper-inflation is inevitable. The sole premise for you thinking this is because governments are printing money.

I have no crystal ball, I only deal with facts. The facts remain, that inflation is not at threat at all right now. Deflation, on the other hand, certainly is. And I do know that I would rather have inflation than deflation. Although too much of either option is certainly not a good thing.
 
Quote from Covertibility:

Interesting slideshow he has linked on his blog to his recent conference, Inequity and crises

Krugman has been more right this past decade than any conservative economist I've run across. Are we still in a mental recession?

Two ways out of today's malaise: 1) soak the rich and cut spending. 2) another stimulus package (more infrastructure jobs, tax benefits for small biz, alt fuel spending) and float paper at 4%. The idiot way is the republican way: cut spending, more corporate socialism and more tax cuts for the rich.

Did Krugman forsee the mortgage crisis? Or the quadrupling in the price of gold? If not, I'd say he did worse than the doom and gloom conservatives. I agree with him that increasing economic inequality is a problem, but in the U.S. a significant cause of the increase in such inequality over the past 30 years has been the unprecedented amount of immigration, both legal and otherwise. Our corporate masters have used this vast supply of labor to keep a lid on working and middle class wages. Every liberal in Washington is in favor of increasing immigration and encouraging more illegal immigration with amnesty. So I don't believe them one minute when they cite economic inequality as the reason they have to raise my taxes.
 
Quote from Kassz007:

There is absolutely zero evidence that hyper-inflation is inevitable. The sole premise for you thinking this is because governments are printing money.

I have no crystal ball, I only deal with facts. The facts remain, that inflation is not at threat at all right now.

Perhaps not for the moment. But with such a staggering debt, Uncle Sam has no other choice but to hyperinflation itself out of the mounting pile of IOUs. It's either hyperinflation or bankruptcy IMHO.
 
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