Just who are the bad guys in the polygamy case?

Quote from traderNik:

That is true and is almost certainly true in all of these cult-type compounds. That fact doesn't seem to be enough for some in this thread to be able to justify busting the operation up.

If you're asking where the victims are, some of them have escaped and are telling anyone who will listen that underage girls are being forced to marry and have sex against their will.



(cough) Guantanamo Bay (cough)

AAA, something very ironic just occurred to me. You're constantly saying that it is only white Christian males who can be defamed in PC thinking, and that any volley fired at another special interest group is condemned by the PC police as racism or whatever.

Here, though, we're condemning a group that is as deserving of condemnation as the radical Muslims, but you don't seem to like it. Why is that? In this case, you seem to be using the same arguments in defense of the lawbreakers (and lawbreakers they surely are) as those who would defend radical Muslims. The PC argument goes like this - 'You have no proof against this or that bearded, Qu'ran-reading, desert-camp-attending, Western-lifestyle-condemning Islamic jihadi. Your (detention of him, surveillance of him, suspicion of him) is illegal'.

Substitute 'polygamist, our-leader-is-God-incarnate-believing, 14-year-old-child-marrying, closed-compound-with-huge-church-living, weird-Christian-sect devotee', and you have the same argument!! How much evidence do you need before you say 'That's enough'.

You know goddamn well that 14 year old girls have been married off, forced into sex, impregnated and forced to bear children on this property. Don't give me the 'you have no evidence' argument.
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Well, I have no such proof and neither do you. If in fact women or girls were being held against their will or forced into relationships, then that should be a simple matter for the state of Texas to prosecute and prove at trial. I certainly don't condone such conduct,a dn I said so previously. So far however, I haven't heard any women say that, but I haven't been following this case that closely either so i could well have missed it.

What I found disturbing about the whole incident was the fact that the state went in there with SWAT teams and basically arrested everyone and carted off all the children with no proof as to what was going on. i consider that a very serious matter to swoop in and take people's children away and put them under the control of a bunch of strangers who we know very well will be trying to get them to say they were abused. We know from past cases that these "counselors" can trick or coerce children into saying just about anything, given enough time with them. That is not my opinion, it is fact. There are numerous cases of people being sent to prison for long periods of time for made-up child abuse.

Now the state and this huge horde of lawyers are complaining about how difficult it is to unravel this whole thing. Well what did they expect? A child custody proceeding is uniquely centered on the specific child and parents. You can't conduct it like a mass tort case and just throw out some allegations and have everyone in the compound tainted by it. As it is, they don't even know which kids belong to which parents. It is a total fiasco.
 
Quote from traderNik:



You know goddamn well that ..

Don't give me the 'you have no evidence' argument.
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What we have here folks, is a constitution burner. The WORST kind of scum.
 
Quote from AAAintheBeltway:

Well, I have no such proof and neither do you. If in fact women or girls were being held against their will or forced into relationships, then that should be a simple matter for the state of Texas to prosecute and prove at trial.
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Come on, I know you're not that naive. It is anything but simple to prove these things in a situation where the compound is closed and members live under various threats. We have repeated statements from those who have escaped (under cover of night, in fear for their lives and those of their kids) that these things are not only occurring, but are commonplace.

We have all the proof we need that heinous crimes have been committed. Children as young as 14 years old (and maybe younger) have been forced to marry, have been raped, impregnated and then forced to bear children.

Again, I agree with you that these things need to be done legally. The point about the blanket charge like a tort case is valid, but let's read on...
Quote from AAAintheBeltway:
We know from past cases that these "counselors" can trick or coerce children into saying just about anything, given enough time with them. That is not my opinion, it is fact. There are numerous cases of people being sent to prison for long periods of time for made-up child abuse.
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WHOA!!! WHOA!!!!!!!!!

So their testimony is 'coerced'?? So we should treat the testimony of children as 'made-up'? So you feel that counsellors here are extracting made-up instances of child-abuse?

So you feel this is what has happened on this compound? I want you to come right out and say it, don't beat around the bush. Please state the following in no uncertain terms

"I, AAA, feel that accusations surrounding this polygamist cult compound, specifically that girls as young as 14 were forced into marriage, forced into sex, impregnated and then forced to carry the child to term, are unfounded, and most likely the result of coerced confessions extracted by PC-police counsellors. I believe that escapees who have given personal and sometimes heartbreaking testimony to the effect that they were forced into marriage and forced into sex and forced to have children are lying, possibly to get onto Oprah or some other reality-TV show".

Go ahead. To be honest with you, that statement about how we should look at kids making statements about abusers is frightening to me. I'm not doing a LoZZZer on you, I'm just telling you the truth.

I noticed you didn't have one word to say about the fact that you are using the exact same argument here as the PC police use when people like you advocate a crackdown on jihadis.
 
If they feel the need to use a swat team to break up children from their mothers because fifteen or sixteen year old girls are having sex, then why are inner cities allowed to get by with it, but not the religious folk?

A study I just saw said that 33 percent of ninth grade girls have had sexual intercourse in the US. Eight percent when they were fourteen. I don't think i would be jumping to too many conclusions to assume the inner city rates are higher in these instances. Probably much higher.

WHERE ARE THE SWAT TEAMS TAKING THESE CHILDREN FROM THEIR PARENTS?
 
Quote from traderNik:

That is true and is almost certainly true in all of these cult-type compounds. That fact doesn't seem to be enough for some in this thread to be able to justify busting the operation up.

If you're asking where the victims are, some of them have escaped and are telling anyone who will listen that underage girls are being forced to marry and have sex against their will.
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where is the proof? already the hoax phone call that started all of this is a known scam. right now i am hearing maybe 5 girls had underage sex. may have had.... so we kidnap 400 kids?

i want the phone records of the original call and it better have originated from a pay phone. don't hold your breath waiting though.. this thing will only get worse.
 
Quote from nutmeg:

There is not a "better" way to do this. When it comes to children and possible abuse, basically "they" have to shoot first and ask questions later. Everyone is separated and questioned. Their could be varying degrees of abuse at every level even mental abuse with the men if nothing criminal. You just don't know.
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Since when is "not knowing" proper grounds for an all out Jack-Booted raid in America? I don't know whether or not you're currently keeping a harem of milk-carton kids locked up in your basement... Think they should kick down your door at 4 AM to check for sure?

Evidence of criminal activity without concrete proof is grounds for an investigation of the suspected guilty parties, complete with full due process and Habeas Corpus, NOT mass-abduction of the entire community at gunpoint- Not in America.

TraderNik: <i>"...accusations surrounding this polygamist cult compound, specifically that girls as young as 14 were forced into marriage, forced into sex, impregnated and then forced to carry the child to term..."</i>

Nik, I think it would help resolve a lot of the confusion here if you could help point us to credible links that support such claims. If there really is clear evidence of human rights abuses to such an extreme degree, I may even change my opinion about this entire story.
 
I don't know whether or not you're currently keeping a harem of milk-carton kids locked up in your basement... Think they should kick down your door at 4 AM to check for sure?

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An anonymous call to CPS and someone will show up at your door. Now re the 4am kick in the door scenario. In NY, going from memory re a newspaper case but CPS attempted to contact the people during business hours of 9-5 and no one answered the door after several days/tries. Was that good enough? A minor died from abuse, I suppose CPS should have tried at 4am.
 
Quote from TM_Direct:

Of course not...but so far its allegations that defintely should be investigated.....but it looks like they kind of through out the baby with the bath water eh??? it may turn out that there was abuse....my queston is this and as a devout catholic i can bring it up:

how many priests and churches over the last 15 years were involved in SICKER claims...yet can yo recall a single 'raid" on a catholic church to save people or at the very least gather evidence?????
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Thats because the catholic church is huge, recognized, therefore powerful, and the law does not rush in. The church in Texas that practices polygamy is not mainstream...no majority of the people power.
Personally, I think those moms of that plougamis sect who claim nothing was wrong or abusive, are victims themselves of a church that use god to let men have sex with many differnt women of all ages. These moms know nothing else because they have not been "exposed" to outsiders. This is all they know. Know their children have been taken form them..so of course they will claim there was no abuse, and please give back my children. They are mothers who have lost thier children and will say anthing to get them back.
Hmm, how would america feel if a women had many husbands of different ages? That would not be accepted. But when men set up a compound to allow themselves sex from many different girls, and much younger, than its ok?
 
Quote from Rearden Metal:
Nik, I think it would help resolve a lot of the confusion here if you could help point us to credible links that support such claims. If there really is clear evidence of human rights abuses to such an extreme degree, I may even change my opinion about this entire story.
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Hank, I understand your request. I don't really have the time or inclination to do the Google/net search work necessary to comb through the records and find older references to this polygamist community. I recall hearing about them years ago, in similar circumstances. In my view, there is no doubt whatsoever that crimes against minor girls have been and are being committed in these cult-communities. I will say again, I am in agreement that the mass arrests are probably unconstitutional. However, in unusual cases like this, I can sympathize with the authorities, given my belief that ugly crimes are being committed.

Warren Jeffs has been charged with multiple counts of rape of a minor, incest, forcible confinement and whatever else, I don't know. Jeffs was the spiritual leader of this community and directed the actions of his followers.

http://www.gazette.com/articles/kids_35034___article.html/polygamist_pull.html

During his trial it was revealed that a 14 year-old girl in the FLDS community was forced into marriage and sex with her 19 year-old first cousin.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/08/AR2008040801742.html

A jury convicted Jeffs of being an accessory to this crime. Is it the theory of AAA and others that this was an abberation? Is it their contention that other marriages like this were not arranged, sanctioned and carried out by Jeffs?

Dale Barlow was found guilty of conspiracy to have sex with a minor. He claims that the latest young girl to make such a charge is not known to him.

http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=oid:610930

In addition, a breakaway sect of FLDS members ended up in Bountiful, British Columbia. Their leader, Winston Blackmore, has 20 wives and 89 children. They came under suspicion and were the subject of several investigative efforts by journalists up here. Blackmore himself, who was interviewed several times by CBC, struck me as being a fairly reasonable guy (although somewhat confused about what was going to get him into Heaven), and denied that any of his wives were underage (less than 16) when he married them.

"The people of Bountiful-who number between 600 and 1,000 depending on who's counting-belong to the United Effort Plan (UEP), an Arizona-based sect who believe God favours those who are fruitful and multiply. ... in the past year they have become the most visible group because of fierce internal fighting, U.S. court actions, and allegations from former members of a cross-border trade in underage girls destined for polygamous marriages."

http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy65.html

The extremely secretive nature of these cults and the indoctrination since birth and threats in later years apparently make it difficult for investigators to get witnesses willing to go public. Even if an escapee wanted to tell her story, several of her immediate family are probably still living in the community (inbreeding) and would be subjected to God-knows-what. The police regularly drag street-gangs and their known associates into jail when they know that one of them has committed a serious crime. They put them in separate rooms and tell each one that the other has dimed him out. Works like a charm.

There's enough smoke here for me.

Once again, please understand... when AAA suggests this is most likely a situation where counsellors coerced statements out of kids and associates this situation with the suggestion that a lot of jailed child-molesters are there because of false testimony, I have to respond.

There is a better than even chance that no serious charges will result from these arrests.
 
Quote from trendlover:

Thats because the catholic church is huge, recognized, therefore powerful, and the law does not rush in. The church in Texas that practices polygamy is not mainstream...no majority of the people power.
Personally, I think those moms of that plougamis sect who claim nothing was wrong or abusive, are victims themselves of a church that use god to let men have sex with many differnt women of all ages. These moms know nothing else because they have not been "exposed" to outsiders. This is all they know. Know their children have been taken form them..so of course they will claim there was no abuse, and please give back my children. They are mothers who have lost thier children and will say anthing to get them back.
Hmm, how would america feel if a women had many husbands of different ages? That would not be accepted. But when men set up a compound to allow themselves sex from many different girls, and much younger, than its ok?
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Q. How do you know when your God is the true God?

A. When you realize that your God hates all the same people you do.
 
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