judge not moving 10 commandments statue from u.s.a. gov. property
- Thread starter Weeble
- Start date
TM_Direct
Just what is it you are saying?
You teach your kids that lying is wrong, that cheating is wrong that stealing is wrong. You explain to them why. Don't you give substantial practical helpful and useful reason why it is not acceptable to do these things..or do you tell them stealing is subjective?
The reasons why it might not be a subjective matter for you seems to be because there is a god which says not to. Why is it not a more substantial reason to explain to your kids the consequences of their actions will have on others? That it is better for them not to do anything which might unfairly impact another's life? To think clearly about what it is they may be doing. Or do you alternatively tell them theses things are wrong and they will go to hell 'cause there is a God...and somehow to you that is not subjective???
The religious seem to need to construct a hierarchical abstract figure because they do not want the responsibility themselves of developing a proper and more appropriate explanation of things as they appear. Rather they prefer to construct or perpetuate a daddy-of-the-sky to use like a big stick with which they threaten others, including their children.
The bottom line is people decide. Society decides at large and manifests its decision in Law.
If not, God would still have witches put to death and be condoning slavery. Presumably by now however, murder and slavery is not too subjective a matter for you. It should also not be too difficult to explain the non subjective elements of lying, cheating and stealing to your children without the need shout GOD at them.
You know for sure there is a god is fine. That you hear voices in your head that suggest he is speaking to you should be worrying.
If this voice you hear as God tells you to go kill your neighbor because he 'sins against the name of the lord' and if you don't you will suffer eternal torment... what will you do? Would you trust it was ok?
If this same God is also speaking with some world leader and tells him that genocide is appropriate against his enemy (with plenty of similar bible reference to support) does that make it ok to carry out genocide in the name of God who has spoken to him? Would you trust it was ok?
If your God to whom you speak says no it isn't ok... who or what will you rely upon to decide if genocide is ever ok, or is a subjective matter or not???!!!???
I know for sure things too, but those things which I know for sure but cannot demonstrate I make sure I qualify when telling my kids about. 'I think or I believe that there is' ...etc.
ps.
I would remind you about trees and noises... if a man speaks in a forest and no women are close enough to hear him, he is still wrong.
Just what is it you are saying?
You teach your kids that lying is wrong, that cheating is wrong that stealing is wrong. You explain to them why. Don't you give substantial practical helpful and useful reason why it is not acceptable to do these things..or do you tell them stealing is subjective?
The reasons why it might not be a subjective matter for you seems to be because there is a god which says not to. Why is it not a more substantial reason to explain to your kids the consequences of their actions will have on others? That it is better for them not to do anything which might unfairly impact another's life? To think clearly about what it is they may be doing. Or do you alternatively tell them theses things are wrong and they will go to hell 'cause there is a God...and somehow to you that is not subjective???
The religious seem to need to construct a hierarchical abstract figure because they do not want the responsibility themselves of developing a proper and more appropriate explanation of things as they appear. Rather they prefer to construct or perpetuate a daddy-of-the-sky to use like a big stick with which they threaten others, including their children.
The bottom line is people decide. Society decides at large and manifests its decision in Law.
If not, God would still have witches put to death and be condoning slavery. Presumably by now however, murder and slavery is not too subjective a matter for you. It should also not be too difficult to explain the non subjective elements of lying, cheating and stealing to your children without the need shout GOD at them.
You know for sure there is a god is fine. That you hear voices in your head that suggest he is speaking to you should be worrying.
If this voice you hear as God tells you to go kill your neighbor because he 'sins against the name of the lord' and if you don't you will suffer eternal torment... what will you do? Would you trust it was ok?
If this same God is also speaking with some world leader and tells him that genocide is appropriate against his enemy (with plenty of similar bible reference to support) does that make it ok to carry out genocide in the name of God who has spoken to him? Would you trust it was ok?
If your God to whom you speak says no it isn't ok... who or what will you rely upon to decide if genocide is ever ok, or is a subjective matter or not???!!!???
I know for sure things too, but those things which I know for sure but cannot demonstrate I make sure I qualify when telling my kids about. 'I think or I believe that there is' ...etc.
ps.
I would remind you about trees and noises... if a man speaks in a forest and no women are close enough to hear him, he is still wrong.
Stu:
I again ask you , please explain to me why stealing, cheating, clinging is wrong without citing statutes? MY original point was that you can look at ANY discussion and break it down to the point where there is no longer any reason involved...I am not brainwashing my children by teaching them to be honest, trustworthy and charitable......but I challenge the laws of nature to explain to me what is wrong with lying , staling and cheating without using legal or religious arguments?? As far as the "voices" in my head....every person , everyday hears the same voices....when you come to a red light do you stop? do you run it? what goes through your mind?...you follow the law most likely...take it one step further....when you see a downtrodden homeless person asking you for money.....what goes through your mind? are those insane voices you are hearing debating whether to give him a 1.00 or 10.00?? and the voice I hear from my god is never evil...and never wants me to hurt someone...on the contrary....its my God that is instructing me to know better and to stop wishing ill on people like Alfonso and makes me apologize
....as for the tree in the forest....I think we both can finally agree on something!!!
I again ask you , please explain to me why stealing, cheating, clinging is wrong without citing statutes? MY original point was that you can look at ANY discussion and break it down to the point where there is no longer any reason involved...I am not brainwashing my children by teaching them to be honest, trustworthy and charitable......but I challenge the laws of nature to explain to me what is wrong with lying , staling and cheating without using legal or religious arguments?? As far as the "voices" in my head....every person , everyday hears the same voices....when you come to a red light do you stop? do you run it? what goes through your mind?...you follow the law most likely...take it one step further....when you see a downtrodden homeless person asking you for money.....what goes through your mind? are those insane voices you are hearing debating whether to give him a 1.00 or 10.00?? and the voice I hear from my god is never evil...and never wants me to hurt someone...on the contrary....its my God that is instructing me to know better and to stop wishing ill on people like Alfonso and makes me apologize
....as for the tree in the forest....I think we both can finally agree on something!!!The judges who understand the law 100 times better than
you do disagree with your position, as does the supreme court,
and so do I.
I wonder if you would feel the same way if the motto
on the dollar bill was "In Satan we trust".
It is totally relevant. I'll have to assume you are in
the majority, and therefore it doesn't surprise me that
you can't see the obvious.
peace
axeman
you do disagree with your position, as does the supreme court,
and so do I.
I wonder if you would feel the same way if the motto
on the dollar bill was "In Satan we trust".
It is totally relevant. I'll have to assume you are in
the majority, and therefore it doesn't surprise me that
you can't see the obvious.
peace
axeman
It was just yet another comment, not a summary conclusion
of what I posted. Stop attempting to distort what I said.
If anything shouldn't surprise anyone, it's the fact that
you have to resort to subtle attacks since you seem
incapable of showing where I am wrong.
I'm glad we have intelligent people in the supreme court
who over rule people like you.
peace
axeman
of what I posted. Stop attempting to distort what I said.
If anything shouldn't surprise anyone, it's the fact that
you have to resort to subtle attacks since you seem
incapable of showing where I am wrong.
I'm glad we have intelligent people in the supreme court
who over rule people like you.
peace
axeman
Lying and cheating is not always wrong, it depends on the context.
Your question doesn't make sense without the context.
If a violent rapist broke into your house, tied you up, and
asked you where your daughter was hiding, LYING would
not be wrong.
If you were a soldier on the battlefield, and had the
opportunity to steal a tank that would be used the
next day to kill you and your fellow man, then stealing
would not be wrong.
Why is it not wrong in these cases? Because you used
your mind and REASON to logically decide so.
If your god claims that lying is always wrong, then your
god is simply an idiot or retarded. Certainly not omniscient.
However... if someones "god voice" in their head, tells
them that lying to a friend about sleeping with his
wife is not wrong, does this somehow make it moral?
I don't think so! Don't even TRY and tell me
this never happens.
There are even more issues with the funny little god voices.
What if PERSON A has a god voice that says it is moral to do X,
but PERSON B's god voice tells him the VERY SAME X is IMMORAL?
Who is right? This is why it's totally subjective and fails
miserably as a basis for any moral code.
As stu has so elegantly pointed out, the church has
historically already proved just how subjective this
so called religious moral code is, by changing it over time.
I guess this omniscient god is not so omniscient after all?
Or maybe he just changed his mind on what is right or wrong?
As for voices in my head, the only one I hear is my own.
If I were to hear external voices in my head I would
be seriously concerned. People who hear external voices
in their head are typically diagnosed as mentally ill.
Presbyterian minister Paul Hill will be put to death by lethal
injection for the murder of an abortion doctor and his
volunteer escort with a shotgun.
Anyone doubt that he "heard little god voices" in his head?
I rest my case.
peace
axeman
Your question doesn't make sense without the context.
If a violent rapist broke into your house, tied you up, and
asked you where your daughter was hiding, LYING would
not be wrong.
If you were a soldier on the battlefield, and had the
opportunity to steal a tank that would be used the
next day to kill you and your fellow man, then stealing
would not be wrong.
Why is it not wrong in these cases? Because you used
your mind and REASON to logically decide so.
If your god claims that lying is always wrong, then your
god is simply an idiot or retarded. Certainly not omniscient.
However... if someones "god voice" in their head, tells
them that lying to a friend about sleeping with his
wife is not wrong, does this somehow make it moral?
I don't think so! Don't even TRY and tell me
this never happens.
There are even more issues with the funny little god voices.
What if PERSON A has a god voice that says it is moral to do X,
but PERSON B's god voice tells him the VERY SAME X is IMMORAL?
Who is right? This is why it's totally subjective and fails
miserably as a basis for any moral code.
As stu has so elegantly pointed out, the church has
historically already proved just how subjective this
so called religious moral code is, by changing it over time.
I guess this omniscient god is not so omniscient after all?
Or maybe he just changed his mind on what is right or wrong?
As for voices in my head, the only one I hear is my own.
If I were to hear external voices in my head I would
be seriously concerned. People who hear external voices
in their head are typically diagnosed as mentally ill.
Presbyterian minister Paul Hill will be put to death by lethal
injection for the murder of an abortion doctor and his
volunteer escort with a shotgun.
Anyone doubt that he "heard little god voices" in his head?
I rest my case.
peace
axeman
Quote from TM_Direct:
Stu:
I again ask you , please explain to me why stealing, cheating, clinging is wrong without citing statutes? MY original point was that you can look at ANY discussion and break it down to the point where there is no longer any reason involved...I am not brainwashing my children by teaching them to be honest, trustworthy and charitable......but I challenge the laws of nature to explain to me what is wrong with lying , staling and cheating without using legal or religious arguments?? As far as the "voices" in my head....every person , everyday hears the same voices....when you come to a red light do you stop? do you run it? what goes through your mind?...you follow the law most likely...take it one step further....when you see a downtrodden homeless person asking you for money.....what goes through your mind? are those insane voices you are hearing debating whether to give him a 1.00 or 10.00?? and the voice I hear from my god is never evil...and never wants me to hurt someone...on the contrary....its my God that is instructing me to know better and to stop wishing ill on people like Alfonso and makes me apologize
"
I'm quite certain they understand the law better than you or I.
Do you disagree? TOTALLY DISAGREE, IF NOT , WHY IS IT SO IMPORTANT TO LIBS AND CONSERV. GROUPS TO GET THEIR JUDGE IN?? LAW IS LAW, BUT EVERYBODY INTERPRETS DIFFERENTLY
"
This proves my point. They are going to the courts
to settle their differences on the interpretation of the law
BECAUSE THEY (the supreme court) ARE THE EXPERTS, and
someone is interpreting the law incorrectly.
"..BTW...I am suggesting that lying is not wrong not is stealing or murder.......i want somebody to prove to me WHY it is wrong to LIE, CHEAT or STEAL without citing laws of MAN or GOD????"
This question makes no sense. It's like asking:
I want someone to prove to me that computer desk is exactly 32.6" long,
without citing a standard of measure (you cant use a ruler!)
For example...you may say killing is wrong because
of "thou shalt not kill". The 10 commandments would
be your standard of measure ( a terrible one).
I couldn't ask you why killing is wrong, while at the same
time not allowing you to answer using the 10 commandments.
So the question really becomes, where do laws come from,
if not from supernatural fairy tales?
How does man formulate his own laws?
This get very philosophical and could take a loooong time
Lot's of reading out there if your really interested in this subject.
I think I can easily show why a god based system of law
is completely flawed. However, I don't think I have the time
or qualifications to teach a philosophy course on ethics and
morals at this point. Maybe Stu will oblige?
peace
axeman
I'm quite certain they understand the law better than you or I.
Do you disagree? TOTALLY DISAGREE, IF NOT , WHY IS IT SO IMPORTANT TO LIBS AND CONSERV. GROUPS TO GET THEIR JUDGE IN?? LAW IS LAW, BUT EVERYBODY INTERPRETS DIFFERENTLY
"
This proves my point. They are going to the courts
to settle their differences on the interpretation of the law
BECAUSE THEY (the supreme court) ARE THE EXPERTS, and
someone is interpreting the law incorrectly.
"..BTW...I am suggesting that lying is not wrong not is stealing or murder.......i want somebody to prove to me WHY it is wrong to LIE, CHEAT or STEAL without citing laws of MAN or GOD????"
This question makes no sense. It's like asking:
I want someone to prove to me that computer desk is exactly 32.6" long,
without citing a standard of measure (you cant use a ruler!)
For example...you may say killing is wrong because
of "thou shalt not kill". The 10 commandments would
be your standard of measure ( a terrible one).
I couldn't ask you why killing is wrong, while at the same
time not allowing you to answer using the 10 commandments.
So the question really becomes, where do laws come from,
if not from supernatural fairy tales?
How does man formulate his own laws?
This get very philosophical and could take a loooong time
Lot's of reading out there if your really interested in this subject.
I think I can easily show why a god based system of law
is completely flawed. However, I don't think I have the time
or qualifications to teach a philosophy course on ethics and
morals at this point. Maybe Stu will oblige?
peace
axeman