What is the point of being an independent with two crappy choices? The money guys don't care which crappy party you vote for, they own both of them don't they?
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Joe Lieberman: I'll filibuster Harry Reid's plan
- Thread starter Tigerjaw
- Start date
What is the point of being an independent with two crappy choices? The money guys don't care which crappy party you vote for, they own both of them don't they?
http://goooh.com/home.aspx
Quote from omegapoint:
I understand both sides of the argument. We can hash things out in a forum like this like hornets in a jar and think we're making a difference but its like your football team losing all the time. At some point you stop living and dying by their win/loss record. I trust corporations less than I might trust a government that corporations haven't meddled with. Afterall, Goldman isn't going to invoke regulations on themselves ...you can stretch that concept to fit any corporation whose interests have little to do with any general welfare. If its possible that government can run healthcare then the profit can, at least for just this ONE little corner of our social organisation, then eliminating the billions of dollars in profit might go towards helping ...people. Careers, ambitions -- I have reservations about their vision w/o perspective.
I see your position. Unfortunately govt has never brought on efficiency or improved service in any area that I'm aware of. (NO that's not true - - they seem particularly effective at killing lots of people and spreading misery.) The answer is a truly free market outside of govt interference. Let people take the money thats ripped off from them (used to later bribe them for votes) and make their own choices. - - It was when govt became involved in such programs as Medicare and Medicaid that the journey down the slippery slope began IMO.
Profit is actually not a dirty word. In a truly free market system it is the signal which indicates where resources should flow. It rewards efficiency. Central planned systems with bureaucrats are never as effective as the market. (And as long as people trade among themselves there is always the market. It isn't a 'thing', but what people do. In communist countries where it was 'outlawed' people merely took their actions underground - 'black markets'. ) In more open sectors of the economy, such as the computer industry, we see the impact of free markets and the profit signal. Better products for declining prices. In the govt controlled markets we see special interests using their political influence for their advantage at the cost to their competitors and the public. That is not capitalism.
Just a little challenge - - I dare you to spend a little time reading in the following website. Murray Rothbard is particularly insightful and a delightful writer on general economics, banking, and liberty :
www.mises.org
Quote from Tigerjaw:
I see your position. Unfortunately govt has never brought on efficiency or improved service in any area that I'm aware of. (NO that's not true - - they seem particularly effective at killing lots of people and spreading misery.) The answer is a truly free market outside of govt interference. Let people take the money thats ripped off from them (used to later bribe them for votes) and make their own choices. - - It was when govt became involved in such programs as Medicare and Medicaid that the journey down the slippery slope began IMO.
Profit is actually not a dirty word. In a truly free market system it is the signal which indicates where resources should flow. It rewards efficiency. Central planned systems with bureaucrats are never as effective as the market. (And as long as people trade among themselves there is always the market. It isn't a 'thing', but what people do. In communist countries where it was 'outlawed' people merely took their actions underground - 'black markets'. ) In more open sectors of the economy, such as the computer industry, we see the impact of free markets and the profit signal. Better products for declining prices. In the govt controlled markets we see special interests using their political influence for their advantage at the cost to their competitors and the public. That is not capitalism.
Just a little challenge - - I dare you to spend a little time reading in the following website. Murray Rothbard is particularly insightful and a delightful writer on general economics, banking, and liberty :
www.mises.org
I looked at the site, not really anything new. Just the same old catechisms that your communications are peppered with. Daring me to read it reminds me of something a television evangelist might do. I was born in Austria; not that it has any bearing on
my mindset relative to the site but "Austrian Economics" isn't much different than any other economics. It just says in 100 words what could have been said in 10 without the authoritative seduction ...PHD. Purporting to create airtight logical syllogisms that choirs hang on every word of. That word Liberty should always be used with the understanding that its the powerful who benefit from its applications.
Quote from omegapoint:
I looked at the site, not really anything new. Just the same old catechisms that your communications are peppered with. Daring me to read it reminds me of something a television evangelist might do. I was born in Austria; not that it has any bearing on
my mindset relative to the site but "Austrian Economics" isn't much different than any other economics. It just says in 100 words what could have been said in 10 without the authoritative seduction ...PHD. Purporting to create airtight logical syllogisms that choirs hang on every word of. That word Liberty should always be used with the understanding that its the powerful who benefit from its applications.
You really don't know anything at all do you ? Just the prejudices born out of 'certainty' about your own viewpoints, and backed with nothing. You know nothing of philosophy, economics, or history at all (and deem them irrelevant) - - and think that your nihilism aped from somewhere else is profound. You are mentally and spirtually lazy and bankrupt. That is evident from your comments about some of the most profound of thinkers on economics and human society. A quick skim to confirm your own preset notions isn't of any value. - - To you nothing is worth bothering with, much less actually fighting for. Or perhaps all your attention is on your own immediate circumstances, family, etc. Or in the clouds on some 'higher plane'. Nothing wrong with that, - - but why bother coming to a forum and posting on politics & economics ? Is it just about repeating that 'not only is the system screwed, there's nothing we can do about it and its always gonna be that way no matter what we attempt, They got it all wrapped up' ? Perhaps true, but humanity would never have attempted anything at all if that viewpoint were held by everyone. - - -
Quote from Fractals 'R Us:
What is the point of being an independent with two crappy choices? The money guys don't care which crappy party you vote for, they own both of them don't they?
http://goooh.com/home.aspx
The point is to be independent of thought rather than a trained monkey following whatever 'the party' tells you.
I agree that the parties have been owned by the money interests. Been that way for a long, long time. They fund the candidates, they own the media. - - So a coalition of those who truly want to take back their government and lives is as profound an American Revolution as the one started in 1776. IMO they want to keep up the Dem vs Rep illusion. If not that, they would want people to think they are powerless against this - - totally dependent and without options against an all powerful central government.
IMO If you truly believe that the system is corrupt and that the money guys own it, than there are only two choices available to you. Exist as essentially a kind of a slave (even if just a wage/debt/tax slave) or change those conditions as a Free Man. - - I don't know if Americans will fight the battle of ideas for their freedom any longer. If not - - as seemingly shown by many ET socialists in this forum - - they dont deserve freedom at all. - -
Quote from Tigerjaw:
You really don't know anything at all do you ? Just the prejudices born out of 'certainty' about your own viewpoints, and backed with nothing. You know nothing of philosophy, economics, or history at all (and deem them irrelevant) - - and think that your nihilism aped from somewhere else is profound. You are mentally and spirtually lazy and bankrupt. To you nothing is worth bothering with, less actually fighting for. Or perhaps all your attention is on your own immediate circumstances, family, etc. Nothing wrong with that, - - but why bother coming to a politics & religion forum ? Is it just about repeating that 'not only is the system screwed, there's nothing we can do about it and its always gonna be that way no matter what we attempt' ? Perhaps true, but humanity would never have attempted anything at all if that viewpoint were held by everyone. - - -
Yea, I'm authoritarian like that. I took one of those online tests and it spit out that I was liberal authoritarian. As in I'd raise taxes on the wealthy since they only think they earned it by themselves. Funny isn't it how wealthy interests always wrap their lots up where any mention of raising taxes are concerned with people who are struggling. "They're raising taxes again" as if it were being done to everyone. Wealth should be redistributed since its always going to get redistributed somehow anyway, its just a matter of who controls how. I only contribute in this forum for my own entertainment. There seldom is anything new here to learn and noone ever changes anyones mind. I know how people are going to respond before they do, like you; you're entirely predictable for me. Your prevailing mindset is all too common, its the same as what Limbaugh traffics in.
Quote from Tigerjaw:
Limbaugh is often - - - like you - - - simplistic in his 'thought'.
You wont read it because you really are a dolt but "Socialism" by Ludwig von Mises is actually rather enlightening to those open to enlightenment. Bye & enjoy your self satisfied ignorance
Now how did I know you''d say that! Go ahead, you can have the last word.
Quote from omegapoint:
I understand both sides of the argument. We can hash things out in a forum like this like hornets in a jar and think we're making a difference but its like your football team losing all the time. At some point you stop living and dying by their win/loss record. I trust corporations less than I might trust a government that corporations haven't meddled with. Afterall, Goldman isn't going to invoke regulations on themselves ...you can stretch that concept to fit any corporation whose interests have little to do with any general welfare. If its possible that government can run healthcare then the profit can, at least for just this ONE little corner of our social organisation, then eliminating the billions of dollars in profit might go towards helping ...people. Careers, ambitions -- I have reservations about their vision w/o perspective.
#1 standing in the world economy was made possible by US capitalism, not government. Regulation is necessary to stem the excesses we have seen the last 10 to 15 years. Derivatives should have never existed. I never could understand them and now I know why. Wall Street is the heart of the problem and they are just one part of the system. Volcker says separate the commercial banks from the others and let them sink or swim. They never should have been allowed to be deregulated and Volcker knows this. The problem is, men like Volcker are becoming few and far between in gov't these days.