Jesus...the Messiah?

Quote from I am...:

There is really no correlation between what Jesus thought about himself, and what Jewish prophets[thought/said/wrote]
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I disagree...and agree.

[A]
Clearly Jesus saw his ministry as fulfilling prophecy, as evidenced by the story in Luke 4:16-21.

"And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up; and he went to the synagogue, as his custom was, on the sabbath day. And he stood up to read; and there was given to him the book of the prophet Isaiah. He opened the book and found the place where it was written, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."

He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. And he said to them, "Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."


Jesus was not a strict adherent to the letter of the Law. As Momo pointed out (for example) "John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat." But why did he make this paste? (Is that an important question?) He made the paste in order to restore sight to a blind man.

Jesus defends himself in a similar situation (Luke 14:1-6):

"One sabbath when he went to dine at the house of a ruler who belonged to the Pharisees, they were watching him. And behold, there was a man before him who had dropsy. And Jesus spoke to the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, "Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath, or not?" But they were silent. Then he took him and healed him, and let him go. And he said to them, "Which of you, having a son or an ox that has fallen into a well, will not immediately pull him out on a sabbath day?" And they could not reply to this."

My sense of all this is that Jesus believed that the fulfillment of the messianic prophecies would not take place as they were literally written about in the scriptures, but would unfold in a way that would reveal a deeper glory of God than had previously been imagined.

("New Covenant"..."New Wine"...basically a radical re-interpretation of the Law and the Prophets).

But that's my christian perspective. I can certainly see how a jew who felt that the scriptures were "written in stone" would have a problem with Jesus as messiah.
 
One of the many facts that seals the deal for me that christianity is just another religion is the fact that it was determined by the council of Nicea. The decision about the divinity of christ was arbitrary and determined by Constantines need for power, not by any sort of objective evidence. The fact that you had 3 different christianities in which a winner was settled by a meeting should be a huge red flag to anyone who can think, but alas faith is that drug that makes the critical thinking skills go away.
 
Fortunately however once a culture has dug the trap of religion for itself and surrendered reason to faith, the proposal to eventually escape is also unavoidably made.
 
Quote from Mav88:

One of the many facts that seals the deal for me that christianity is just another religion is the fact that it was determined by the council of Nicea. The decision about the divinity of christ was arbitrary and determined by Constantines need for power, not by any sort of objective evidence. The fact that you had 3 different christianities in which a winner was settled by a meeting should be a huge red flag to anyone who can think, but alas faith is that drug that makes the critical thinking skills go away.
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The divinity of Christ and other issues from the council of Nicaea in no way colors that Christianity is just another religion. In fact, that was the biblical way since the beginning. The way has always been to bring in the elders of the church and deal with schisms, traditional vs. unconventional views and many other problems.

That Christ was divine is very apparent in the Old Testament in messianic references, but it was hidden until his advent. Many of the words in the anthem "Messiah" lists these Old Testament references. Example: he shall be called ‘Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty One, God, Everlasting One, Father, Prince of Peace’ " "His origins are from old, even from Everlasting." and many others.

Trying to deal with apocryphal books was just another example. Some Jews did not want Esther in the Tanakh, since it never once mentions the word "God." The world was drowning in a mixture of God-inspired writings vs. more populous human writings. Dealing with these was a major issue. Books that were obivously not in harmony with the content and purpose of biblical books were rejected, albeit through a lot of arguments.

The Protestant Reformation was a series of somewhat independent movements in many different Europena countries, against the nonbiblical practices of Roman Catholocism, such as selling indulgences, icons, Mary worship, inquisitions directed against inoocent people, and many other issues. They wanted Solo Scriptura - only scripture as the source of truth.

God has to deal with a very limited mortal creature prone to wander away at all times. And people were not His robots. The biblical way is that God has called His people since before the foundation of the World. But even the prophets and apostles were fallible and prone to sin. And they were steeped in a world where most were unbelievers.

As for your objections, they are purely your opinion. You think that your eyes and your beliefs are the final arbiteur. You weren't there at the Council. You weren't there during Old and New Testament times. You are unlikely to be strongly familiar with all scripture. And from your opinion, you seem to know little about the God of Israel. You are one more tiny and insignicant blind critic, precisely as Scripture says many times. "The preaching of the Cross is foolishness to those that are perishing" or (short version) They will look and not see, they shall listen but not hear.
 
Quote from saxon:

I disagree...and agree.

[A]
Clearly Jesus saw his ministry as fulfilling prophecy, as evidenced by the story in Luke 4:16-21.

"And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up; and he went to the synagogue, as his custom was, on the sabbath day. And he stood up to read; and there was given to him the book of the prophet Isaiah. He opened the book and found the place where it was written, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."

He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. And he said to them, "Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."
More...

Well, today it is fulfilled again in your reading.
It was true for Jesus, and it is true for me.
It is true for anyone who has yielded - is yeilding - to the "Spirit of the Lord".
In this way, each is Self annointed...with joy and with power.
But what the Jews consider to be a savior and what the "Spirit of the Lord" considers to be a savior are not the same.
A savior is anyone who yeilds to the true "Spirit of the Lord".
Anyone who yields will be known as "the Lord".
Private interpreters [those interpreting without the Spirit of the Lord] are always thinking in terms of exclusion and special status.
In yielding, Jesus interpreted in terms of inclusion and equality.
Yielding, he *included* himself among the saviors of the world.
Perhaps he was the first to do this.
Being first, he is among the "firstfruits".
Firstfruits implies many more will follow.
They will "come again" the way Jesus came, simply by announcing themselves to the world.
You will know them by their fruits.

The Savior of the world is the "Spirit of the Lord".
A true savior is more than the Jewish nation ever bargained for.
The Jews were asking for a kind of salvation, as they saw fit.
The Jewish Messiah concept is more like having an arsenal of nuclear weapons.
A Jewish Messiah would allow the Jews to live in relative peace as the Messiah replaces a standing army with the roar of his power.
After a demonstration of power, the Jewish Messiah would remain as a Governer or sorts, and deterent against further attack.
But this is not how or what a true savior saves.

A true savior saves the minds of those insane enough to look for a Jewish Messiah type savior.
Such minds are caught up in a Narnia-like web of mythology, fully invested in the idea that attack can be a solution.
Attack as a solution solves the problem of personal salvation.
That is, attack saves a persona, which I call a "self-concept".

The Jews were asking for a savior to save their persona, and collectively, their national identity.
Instead, the Jews got a true savior, the likes of which they could not imagine, and did not expect.
Some of them rejected the unexpected.
Others attempted to accept, but in their own, Jewish, way.
Still others sold everything they had - all their previously cherished belief systems - and followed Jesus to the truth.

The truth about Jesus is the truth about everyone.
So it is inclusive, and not exclusive.
Everyone is included in salvation.
Everyone has a role to "fulfill".
No one can fulfill anyone elses role.
So,
The salvation of the world depends on each and everyone.
This is a collective Messiah, led and guided by the "Spirit of the Lord".
The collective Messiah saves the Self from self-concepts.
The self-concepts must yeild - surrender - to Self to accomplish this task.
In surrendering, the "Spirit of the Lord" descends upon the self-concept to fulfill a special task.
In laying down its own will, the self-concept fulfills his task.
This is "the way".
It is the only way.
This is the way of exodus, ie, "My Kingdom is not of this world".
This is the way of self-denial, ie. "Call no man father".
This is the way of Self acceptance, ie. "Lay down your life that you may take it up again".

In brief, there is not one single scripture that describes, points to, or otherwise "annoints" any single person as savior. If they do, they are not pointing to a savior at all, but rather an egotistical fantasy that fulfills each one's secret desire to be a "chosen" nation, and *special* within it. All those who use scripture to point to an individual have a secret desire to be *special* and *chosen* to the exclusion of others. This keeps them in hell for as long as they secretly cherish such identities.

The Messiah is "neither here nor there". This means the Messiah is not any individual person, or even a group. The Messiah is the "Spirit of the Lord", to which all must "surrender", that they may be the Spirit in truth, as Truth. In truth, each and everyone is the Spirit of the Lord, and therefore, "the Lord". Each is only a man or woman, or Jew or Greek as each denies his truth, and lives in a fantasy land thought to be real [the world]. To say that the Messiah is "over there, in Jesus" is to mislead and defeat his purpose. His purpose is to include, not exclude.

Each must be saved from fantasies.
All fantasies have an element of fear.
Reality knows nothing of fear.
Reality is a perfection that cannot be improved.
Fantasy goes beyond perfection, leading to a nightmare.
Salvation, therefore, is about saving mythological creatures from their limited belief systems.
They are mythological creatures because they have limited themselves.
Having limited themselves, each mythological creature has sacrificed the truth of Self.
Mythological creatures are heavily invested in the idea of sacrifice.
A mythological creature cannot exist without sacrifice.
Sacrifice is always a form of attack.
Attack is associated with salvation as mythological creatures defend themselves against the truth.
So mythological creatures are always under attack.
Salvation is the end of sacrifice, and the return to full glory.
This is done as each lays down the will that drives his mythical identity, and picks up his true Identity instead.
Saved, they are myths no more, but Reality.

Another word for Reality is Christ.
Christ is the totality of everything.
This is way more than any Hebrew prophet ever imagined.
This is the "good news".
But for many, the good news is too good to be true.
Their time will come.
All are called.
Those who are decided are "chosen".
Few are decided at any given moment in time.
But given time, all will decide.

Christ!
 
Quote from TraderZones:

The biblical way is that God has called His people since before the foundation of the World. But even the prophets and apostles were fallible and prone to sin. And they were steeped in a world where most were unbelievers.
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I don't know about the "biblical way", but in the way of salvation, the "Spirit of the Lord" has been calling the "prodigal son" home since before the prodigal son laid the foundation of the world. And in laying that foundation, he neglected to include any truth whatsoever. However, truth is destined to become the chief cornerstone in rebuilding the "temple" destroyed by the lies. The "temple" is the mind of the Son of God. The world is an unholy concept that "exists" only as the *Holy Temple of the Lord* is destroyed. In its turn, the world is destroyed as truth is asserted where lies once ruled. And this is because "a house divided against itself cannot stand". As truth prevails, the world will pass away...washed away "as in the days of Noah". This occurs gently, over time, as each withdraws his investment in myth and mythological creaturehood.

Christ!
 
Quote from saxon:

Actually, the oldest extant "complete" gospel texts date from later than that...more like 350 CE (Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus), though there do exist some older fragments.

The gospel texts were likely written during the mid to late 1st century. But what we have now must be understood as being the end result of 250 years of copying, and probably editing.
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Yes.

And of the writers of the four pop gospels, none met Jesus save Mark, as a child. Generally, they were composed as novelettes sometime after Paul's flurry of literary activity. Consensus was evolving. And as it evolved, it diverged from the earliest messages from more authentic messengers. Those were subsequently disenfranchised, even censured. The ensuing idealogical war resulted in a void of early documentation. Why do you suppose a small library of books, including a copy of the sayings gospel of Thomas, were buried? Who buries controversial books, and why? Stephen's "Words of the Master" has yet to be recovered...destroyed along with a nascent culture called "the way".

Christ!
 
Quote from saxon:

well...until the first gospel, Mark, was written down around 70 CE, the teachings and stories about Jesus had been passed down orally; but that's only about 50 years since Jesus death. Not THAT long, really. since Jesus had many followers, it is very likely that much of what became the oral tradition--and later the written gospels--did indeed come from eye wittnesses.

but the subsequent 250 years of copying and editing give plenty of room for the insertion of things like the polemics against jews, which may have not been part of the original texts or oral traditions.

could those bits have been added later by the Catholic Church? :eek:
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There was written tradition in the meantime. As a consensus gravitated toward a gospel of guilt, the original gospel [gospel of innocence] was censured. I'm talking about confiscation and book-burning. Without the written texts, it is assumed that there was only an oral tradition. But there was both. The oral tradition expounded upon the meanings of Jesus' sayings. The oral tradition was in process of interpreting the meanings of all of his parables and parodies. The tradition promoting a gospel of innocence was called "the Way". The oral tradition promoting innocence was lifted and twisted to fit a gospel of guilt, which requires sacrifice. The result is a hybrid that makes no sense.

The polemics against the Jews started very early among composers of the stories called "gospel". The scribes very much hated the Jews for resisting the concepts they were selling in the name of the Tanakh and the Hebrew gOd.

Jesus was not tried by the high priest just before the Passover. There was no such trial in the middle of the night. Rather, Pontius Pilate wanted Jesus to show the Jews who was boss. He sent scouts to find and arrest Jesus. The scouts found Judas first, and bribed him to tell the wherabouts of his companions. Jesus was popular. And, crucifying a popular figure on the day of the Passover, Pilate sent a message of intimidation to the crowds gathering in that region for the holiday.

Regardless of literary liberties taken, some facts remain intact. Jesus was crucified, and after some time in a tomb, reappeared to his associates in bodily form, appearing and disappearing at will. He then ascended to demonstrate the transcendence of the Son of God over any and all laws of the world, including gravity and guilt. It is these types of events, demonstrations and miracles that has driven enthusiastic hearsay ever since.

But whether factual or mistaken, the hearsay was generated by an extraordinary catalyst. Those who deny that Jesus is a historical figure are like to those who can look at red hot shrapnel fragments, and though they spread out in every direction from a singular point, deny that their source was any kind of bombshell. If these were TV detectives, they'd be cancelled after the first season. Not wise at all.

Bottom line. The bombshell Jesus dropped threatens the existence of everyone and everything in "the universe" aka "the world". It defies all the laws of the world and turns the tables on its counterfiet fakery. So, the world retaliates against the authentic truth every which way to confuse and refuse. What else is new under the sun?


Christ!
 
Quote from saxon:


Jesus was not a strict adherent to the letter of the Law. As Momo pointed out (for example) "John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat." But why did he make this paste? (Is that an important question?) He made the paste in order to restore sight to a blind man.
More...

Jesus made the paste to show that we are blind until we wash with the waters of truth in true baptism. The world is a kind of mud-paste with which we blind ourselves. We make it by working on our thinking, and not resting from our thinking. Our thinking blinds us. The world is a collection of thoughts that blocks out the true light. We make our own paste. We also wash our paste off with the help of truth. Jesus' understanding of Sabbath is/was different than Hebrew understanding of Sabbath. Jesus kept the truest meaning of Sabbath. And in keeping it, he was washing away the thoughts that made the world "in six days". In this way, he was reestablishing the Kingdom of God as the true world, which is, was, and ever shall be. When baptism washes away the world through truth and resting from thoughts, there will stand the Kingdom of God, where it always was, except for our blindness. The Kingdom of God is indeed at hand, always there to be seen as faith opens our eyes.

Christ!
 
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