Jesus...the Messiah?

S

saxon

To the learned Jews in this forum, please run this by me one more time: Why is Jesus not embraced by mainstream Judaisim as the Messiah?

(My question is really about Jesus and his teachings as recorded in the gospels and other sources; not the actions of extremists centuries after his death.)

I hope it's not an offensive question. It's just a curiosity question.
To my mind, Jesus seems a pretty strong candidate for Messiah.
 
Quote from Mom0/pH0x:

1) JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.

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Have you thought about the logic behind the Jewish argument?
Why does Jesus have to fulfill the prophecies before he is the Messiah? You don't think he can be the Messiah until after he fulfills them?

Messiah means "the anointed one".
The Messiah is anointed by God. The anointing is what provides the authority and power to accomplish the tasks and to fulfill the prophecies. One, therefore, must be anointed by God as the Messiah before the prophecies are fulfilled.

Your claims lack logic.
 
Quote from Mom0/pH0x:

2) JESUS DID NOT EMBODY THE PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS OF MESSIAH

A. MESSIAH AS PROPHET

Jesus was not a prophet. Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry. During the time of Ezra (circa 300 BCE), when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets -- Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended.

B. DESCENDENT OF DAVID

The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David!

C. TORAH OBSERVANCE

The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!"

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A.: Where does it say in the bible that prophets can only exist upon the conditions that you state? Have you ever heard the phrase " the traditions of man make the word of God of no effect"?

B.: And according to Jewish tradition Jesus was not a virgin birth and Was Therefore the Son of David.

C.: Deut 13 says that prophets will lead people along the lines of the commandments of God. When Jesus healed on the sabbath, He also showed the hypocrisy of the religious leaders who would care for their animals and refuse to heal people on the sabbath. Wisdom must be used in how to interpret the law, and that is what Jesus personifies.
 
Quote from Mom0/pH0x:

2) JESUS DID NOT EMBODY THE PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS OF MESSIAH

A. MESSIAH AS PROPHET

Jesus was not a prophet. Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry. Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended.

Umm, do you mind providing a clear reference to this in scripture? This is completely false. And it is widely believed Daniel was actually written several centuries later.

Joel 2:28-30

God’s Spirit Poured Out

28 Then afterwards
I will pour out my spirit on all flesh;
your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
your old men shall dream dreams,
and your young men shall see visions.
29 Even on the male and female slaves,
in those days, I will pour out my spirit.

30 I will show portents in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. 31The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord comes.

B. DESCENDENT OF DAVID

The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David!

That is your opinion. Neither verse you gave said anything about the "Father". Both lineages in the New Testament are through David.

C. TORAH OBSERVANCE

The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

Too bad you didn't read Jeremiah. The New Testament is the New Covenant this prophet clearly said would come.

“Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more” (Jeremiah 31:31-34).

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!"

No, he didn't contradict the Torah or state the commandments were no longer applicable. He stated quite a few times the very opposite. He came to fulfill the Law and bring in the New Covenant.

Are Jews still making sacrifices at the Temple for their sins, as required? I am sure they came up with new ways to be cleansed once the Temple was destroyed.
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Quote from Mom0/pH0x:

1) JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

John 2:18-22

18Then the Jews asked him, “What sign can you show us as authority for doing these things?”

19Jesus answered them, “Destroy this sanctuary, and in three days I will rebuild it.”

20The Jews said, “This sanctuary has been under construction for 46 years, and you're going to rebuild it in three days?” 21But the sanctuary he was speaking about was his own body. 22After he had been raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this.

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

This passage does not say that the Messiah will do this, but that God will do this. In 43:3 is the "I" and "he" that verses 5&6 refer to

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

Precisely. But the scripture does not say when this will happen, which is at the end of days Jews doubt the second coming, but they really have no proof when They certainly missed the first coming.

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

As the largest religion on Earth, and the second largest calling Jesus a prophet (and His mother as being the most important woman), and many other religions also calling Jesus a prophet, and almost everyone else being aware of Jesus and the God of Israel, I would say the knowledge is pretty universal. And the "uniting" has not happened yet, so your point has little meaning.

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

The number of fulfilled prophecies is massive:

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/messiah.htm

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.

The same Jewish sources also said that there would be great mourning once Israel understands what they had done to Christ.

Zechariah 12:10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.”

His head was pierced with thorns, His hands and feet were pierced with nails, and a spear pierced His side. Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 provide a very good look forward that matches the New Testament account.

"THEY WILL LOOK BUT NOT SEE THEY LISTEN AND NOT HEAR"
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Quote from saxon:

To the learned Jews in this forum, please run this by me one more time: Why is Jesus not embraced by mainstream Judaisim as the Messiah?

(My question is really about Jesus and his teachings as recorded in the gospels and other sources; not the actions of extremists centuries after his death.)

I hope it's not an offensive question. It's just a curiosity question.
To my mind, Jesus seems a pretty strong candidate for Messiah.
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Good question. I don't spend much time thinking about such things but this one has crossed my mind.

What I see from the responses so far
is not unlike what I/we see every day here on ET.

Perceptions and interpretations of "facts", news, articles, scriptures, statistics, events and "evidence" vary widely. Even when looking at the exact same thing.

MY point or conclusion is that few people are nearly as objective as they would like to think. We humans have a nasty habit of embracing or believing what we want to, especially if it supports our preconceived notions, and ignoring or dismissing everything that contradicts our belief or perception. A belief or perception that is often consciously chosen. But can be unconsciously chosen through indoctrination by parents, teachers or religious leaders.

To make matters worse even those who honestly try to be open minded and objective are constantly bombarded with biased and distorted views of news, events and statistics. Often to the point of out right lies presented as "truth".
 
Quote from Mom0/pH0x:


B. DESCENDENT OF DAVID

The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David!

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Exactly. The evangelicals want to have it both ways: Descended from David (Jeremiah 23:5) and a virgin birth.

One of the many, many inconsistencies and impossibilities within Christianity.
 
Quote from Mom0/pH0x:

Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because:
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Thanks for the info, momo. Interesting points. Stuff not often discussed among jews and christians.
 
Quote from Mom0/pH0x:

LOL. well being that he's already dead, i guess the consensus is that he's pretty much just not going to do them...

and yes, according to prophecy, the messiah is defined precisely by doing the things and having the qualities aforementioned...

i think this crap is all kinda like santa clause for grown ups anyhow... but if i want to humor myself, jesus couldnt have been the messsiah because of the previously mentioned discrepancies
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Yes, and since you skipped over my two posts above addressing all your assertions, there is never a problem when you ignore the evidence...
 
Quote from Mom0/pH0x:

LOL you guys are too funny, it's vday and my girlfriends are demanding, so i have to be brief, so i'll just respond to a few pieces of your 'evidence' even though the post of mine that you quoted was in response to another user...

it's not 'my opinion', jesus, according to christian doctrine was NOT descended from david's line... christian doctrine holds that he was the product of a 'virgin birth', thus invalidating any attempt to link jesus to being the messiah...

Yes, he had a mother who was descended from David. Thus uninvalidating your attempt to de-link Jesus as the Messiah.

think you made some erroneous inference that god fathered both david and jesus or something? yet we can all see what a desperate logical contortion that is... since the torah tells us very clearly that david's father was a man named jesse... who i believe was a musician or something?

huh? try reading it with the glasses on.

also, jesus didn't rebuild the temple... period.

Everything but proof in that thought. Israel didn't get it when Jesus said it then and they don't get it now. You are exceptionally limiting to what Judaism thinks God ought to do and to be. The history expressed in the Tanakh is continuous disobedience to God and breaking the covenant. The only thing that held them together was God's mercy, not Jews themselves.

Nice tiptoe around everything though. Seems you basically cut and pasted some items you read, and have no idea how to address the holes poked into them.

Try reading that passage carefully about "They shall mourn the one they pierced" again.
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