Jesus Christ (What Christians, Jews, and Muslims Say About Him)

[riskfreetrading]

Quote from jem:

I am actually doing other work now.

But you are most likely very wrong.

1. In the very beginning of the bible God uses WE.

Your bible was written after Jesus, and have been modified. Proof that it has been modified is the existence of multiple inconsistent bibles, as well as inconsistent within each bible itself.

Paul, Peter, James, etc.... All those people are just mortals and humans like me and you. In addition the church modifies things as it pleases over time, by adding, removing, and modifying the content.

So the Bible cannot be used as evidence to proof anything.

Do not waste your time to follow something which is not firm. In addition worshiping a human as a diety is beyond logical understanding.

 

[riskfreetrading]

Quote from jem:

2. Hear oh Isreal the Lord our God is one.

The Hebrew word for one is echad.... it means compound unity.



http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John 1 [/B]

I know "echad" (hebru) and "Ahhad" (arab). Ask a hebru and an arab to say the words for unity/one, and you will hear them saying it.

Now since God is One/Echad/Ahhad, then is not that in contradiction with Trinity.

You may counter that Trinity is not in contradiction with One.

Now ask any person to put trinity in his mind. You will see in his mind three things:

1. A guy who looks like Santa Claus. (Father)
2. A baby (Son of God)
3. Holy spirit (typically people cannot see this one in their mind).

The point is that humans will visualize it as more than one.

Is God this ineffective in representing his oneness to humans that he has to confuse them? He who created all this great and sophisticated world will send a concept of trinity within which there are rooms to confusion of the concept of unity.

Trinity is clear to me to be a fabrication, and Jesus did not take part of it.

 

[riskfreetrading]

Quote from jem:



God did provide his son in place of Abrahams son.

I was discussing things with a muslim, and he told me that current day christians think that God has a Son.

I disagreed with him telling him that he mis-understands the meaning of trinity, that he needs more conceptual understanding to grasp the meaning.

However you just confirmed what the muslim thinks by your writing of: "God did provide his son".

Could I ask you:

1. Does God has only one Son?
2. How many other son he has? Any daughters? Any other children of a type we do not know and/or cannot conceive of?

3. Who is the father of God the Father?

4. Does God has a wife?

5. How did he get his Son (since you write that he has one, I am asking how he got him)?

6. Too many other questions to list in here.

 

[Barth Vader]

Quote from riskfreetrading:

Now ask any person to put trinity in his mind. You will see in his mind three things:

1. A guy who looks like Santa Claus. (Father)
2. A baby (Son of God)
3. Holy spirit (typically people cannot see this one in their mind).

The point is that humans will visualize it as more than one.

Your analogy is deficient in the following :

You are assuming that three objects of faith equates to three gods. The so called "persons" in G-D are in no sense three gods.

"...The name of the Father, Son and Spirit means that God is the one God in threefold repetition, and this in such a way that the repetition itself is grounded in His Godhead, so that it implies no alteration in His Godhead, and yet in such a way also that He is the one God only in this repetition, so that His one Godhead stands or falls with the fact that He is God in this repetition, but for that very reason He is the one God in each repetition...."

This subject has more to do with how G-D reveals Himself, than the argument of three "persons". The doctrine of the Trinity is not speaking of three divine I's, but three times of the divine I.

The doctrine of the Trinity is the threefold structure of G-D's revelation to man. 1) G-D reveals Himself 2) He reveals Himself through Himself 3) He reveals about Himself.

How some men think within themselves regarding the G-D who reveals Himself in scripture, in no way alters whom G-D is. So I would offer that your argument is lacking.

 

[jem]

Quote from riskfreetrading:

Your bible was written after Jesus, and have been modified. Proof that it has been modified is the existence of multiple inconsistent bibles, as well as inconsistent within each bible itself.

Paul, Peter, James, etc.... All those people are just mortals and humans like me and you. In addition the church modifies things as it pleases over time, by adding, removing, and modifying the content.

So the Bible cannot be used as evidence to proof anything.

Do not waste your time to follow something which is not firm. In addition worshiping a human as a diety is beyond logical understanding.

WTF - either we are working within the accepted source texts for the religion or not. I do not care if you do not believe the texts are inspired. You said Jesus never said he was God. (it has to be presumed you are talking about the bible because there is not video tape.)

Then you brought up more about the trinity. I think it has be presumed the argument would be made within the accepted texts of Christianity.

If not I could give you a link to JEMS Mission Bay Scrolls - which say Jesus is God. Which are oddly in digital from and I could reproduce them here.

 

[TraderZones]

Quote from Fishbird:

Quote from TraderZones:

Quote from Fishbird:

Jesus was just some weirdo of that time.

As opposed to you, who is normal? How many people follow your life example was it again? Was it more or less than Jesus?

Jesus is just a random tool. Could have been any other cult guy.

um, how many crucifed people are being followed today? People do not follow random . THey follow them for reason

There were thousands crucified at that time or talking crazy stuff all day. And that crap about easter how he got after three days and so on.
I ask you this. Are you following your religion because you really belive in it or because your parents already had that religion and you followed them? Why dont you change to moslem or buddhism? They are also pretty fanatic which means there must be something true about it. Religions are massmanipulation of those who cant live without a higher power. Dont follow anyone and surely not me. Be your own god.
>
There is no god and why would he send a human to tell us how to behave?

Then I am sure you will supply definitive proof that God does not exist, and how God is supposed to follow your ideas rather than what he might think?

We all started as single celled creatures and evolved from that to the various lifeforms. Someday the sun will stop shining and earth will freeze over but more probably we will get hit by an asteroid. Maybe a god created universe and atoms but the rest he has nothing to do with.
>
Does he send a horse for horses and a fish for fishes?

Apparently, you think he sent you, who has no clue where he came from, where he is going, why he is here, what his purpose is, or even

Purpose? Jesus and god, alah and their various prophets etc. are a myth. You follow man made cults. Religions have killed billions and will destroy this planet for sure.
>
We can do what we want. Sin or be friendly, eat others or eat plants.

Then if someone shoots you in the leg, that is OK with you?

There is no right or wrong. Animals dont think in right or wrong. I will react and shoot him but that is just a feeling of revenge created by evolution. Revenge is better than doing nothing and maybe die. Animals dont feel revenge. Btw all the stuff that jesus is telling us is anti-evolutionary. Its kind of socialism were weak should be helped and fighting is bad. If we follow this 10000 years we will be surpassed by another animal that takes the lead and eats us. Helping might be good or bad in the long run but being pacifist like jesus wants us to be will result in us vanishing from earth. Every lifeform fights and the most brute and heartless have highest odds of reproduction.
>
There are absolutely no rules other than what the current power tells you to do.

Funny, why don't you hold up a bank, and explain that to the judge?

Because law will react on my doings and hurt me which i dont like.
>
Its survival of the fittest. You are dead, you get born, live, die and are dead again. Death is not bad, its nessessary to sort out the weak and let the strong carry on and reproduce. There is no sense in it though. Completely senseless and we reproduce only because of our instincts, morale and believes which are all products of evolution. Those who fell the urge for suicide when there is no reason to live or reproduce cant reproduce because they killed themselfes. We are a product who carry on living even though it is senseless.

Unfortunately, survival of the fittest didn't weed you out yet.

Neither you and your gods and religions. Really religions were first found in the stone age. It has to do with the size of our brains. It needs a sense for some reason. People who believe in something are more efficient than if everything is completely senseless for them. I dont reproduce myself for example because its just senseless and mostly a way of escaping. Neither my brother. We will get sorted out by evolution. You like that i guess


God is santa claus for adults. Nothing else.

You are a nightmare for logic

Why is one land believing in one religion and another one is believing a different one? Why is it so geographically specific and not properly mixed up?
Or why dont we believe the same religion with exactly same rules? Answer: Because its delivered by parents and not based on free believe. That to me means religions are just mass confusion. Why are you not moslem?
>
God started to exist when our brain evolved over a specific size.

When does your brain arrive?

Reading what you say makes someone realize that it was definitely a waste of time

Just read it again. You might get it after reading it a couple times.

I was going to respond, but I realized that the ignore button will remove having to respond to future posts from you.

Why are I not moslem? The list is endless, starting with thinking that it is reasonable to give the death penalty to people who leave the faith, being at war with the other major religions of the world, living in the 8th century, and the entire religion pretty much being dependent on the ramblings of one man who thought he could improve upon Judeo-Christianity, which have a long history and are testified to by many.

 

[riskfreetrading]

Quote from jem:

WTF - either we are working within the accepted source texts for the religion or not. I do not care if you do not believe the texts are inspired. You said Jesus never said he was God. (it has to be presumed you are talking about the bible because there is not video tape.)

Then you brought up more about the trinity. I think it has be presumed the argument would be made within the accepted texts of Christianity.

I was working with the bible(s) (the new testament). I proved the following points:

1. The bible is selfcontradictory, internally as well as among multiple copies of the bible. The bible was also NOT written by Jesus, but in fact written by other people some of whom never knew Jesus in person. These are facts.

So the bible talks about the divine, but since it contains flaws, it means it cannot be used as a source to describe the divine, the same way a witness cannot be used as a witness in a court of law if he happens to have perjered/contradicted himself.

2. Trinity:

I have shown to you that Trinity is concept that leads people to contradict the oneness of God, as evidenced by what I wrote and also by the comments of someone who believes that God sent his Son down, while another gave another philosophical interpretation. The latter are not my words, but the words of believers in the bible, which prove my point that trinity is a concept that leads to errors in perception and conception of God. Since the divine cannot make mistakes in description and presentation, the concept of Trinity does not come from the divine, but rather from a human perception of the divine.

3. It follows from my points 1. and 2. that the bible in current christianity is at least flawed, and at worse fabricated in part, and cannot be used to worship and understand the nature of God.

4. However I believe that Jesus was sent from God, and he preached a christianity that is correct, but is not the christianity we see today. I am not alone in being critical, the different groups of christians of today attest to the confusion in the current texts of the bible (new testament).

5. Above points make the charge made by the Jews (as individuals) and the Muslims in the Quran, that christianity in its today's form (for the Quran), contains flaws in its conception of God and contains within it the seeds of idolatry since it is worshiping a man as a God.

6. I find the concept of God is Judaism and Islam solid. There are no internal inconsistencies, and they agree on the same God, it oness, and the nature of prophets.

Islam observes and believes in the old testament.

7. The only difference between Islam and Judaism is that Islam believe that Jesus Christ is a Prophet of God, that Mary is Virgin and Jesus is pure, while Judaism believe that Jesus was just a preacher who was born out a bad woman's deeds.

Some people seem to think that Islam preaches a new religion, but in fact what it says is simply the old testament, the new testament at the time of Jesus, and does it in a word format so that it cannot be changed overtime as it appears to be done in the bible (given the self contradiction and multiple versions of the bible).

 

[I am...]

Quote from riskfreetrading:

Is God this ineffective in representing his oneness to humans that he has to confuse them? He who created all this great and sophisticated world will send a concept of trinity within which there are rooms to confusion of the concept of unity.

Trinity is clear to me to be a fabrication, and Jesus did not take part of it.

Listen closely.

He who created all "this great and sophisticated world" is in denial of oneness. So you will look around and see that everything in this world is separate from another thing in some way or another. And this works to deny oneness as the truth of creation.

Separation is not the truth. It is an illusion. So it's not real. It is a delusion...a hallucination.
Such is "this great and sophisticated world".

"He" is you, the "prodigal Son". That's right: you!.

The prodigal son has the power of the Son of God, who has the power of God. The prodigal Son is using power to deny he is the Son of God...deny he is one with the Father."This great and sophisticated world" is the effect of the power of GoD used against the power of GoD. Since this is ultimately impossible, "this great and sophisticated world" is not but a hypothetical construct, held together by fiat of belief [faith].

The "mark" of the Son is oneness.
The "mark" of the prodigal son is *legion*.
The "mark of the beast" is *legion* and *many*.

And this is how the prodigal son hides from God, by making Self appear to be many, and not one.
This is self-deception.
The many destroy the oneness of the Son.
The many destroy the mind of the Son, and drive him mad.
This great and sophisticated world is the hypothetical story of a mind driven mad by guilt, because it denies oneness, and so destroys Reality [Christ, the Kingdom of God].
This is hypothetical.
But is it made to seem real.
It is not.
So it is a mind f#ck.

Many-ness is a mask over oneness.
Behind the mask is oneness as it is.
It is not readily understood by those who wear masks in denial of oneness.
It is not seen through masks.
It is seen when masks are overlooked.

It is not the will of the prodigal son that oneness be effectively represented to him. If it was his will, he would see it and know it. Rather, he hides from it. The prodigal son has a will equal to God. So he cannot be given anything he does not want. And whatever he wants cannot be taken away from him.

Separateness is a belief of the prodigal son. Because of who he is, the prodigal son's beliefs may not be taken away from him. That is why the attributes of the true GoD are confused and confusing. The prodigal son does not want to know. And from what he wants, GoD cannot save him. In GoD's place is something called "gOd" which is nOt GoD. In this way, the prodigal son has made himself his own father.

Christ!

 

[I am...]

Quote from riskfreetrading:

I was working with the bible(s) (the new testament). I proved the following points:

1. The bible is selfcontradictory, internally as well as among multiple copies of the bible. The bible was also NOT written by Jesus, but in fact written by other people some of whom never knew Jesus in person. These are facts.

So the bible talks about the divine, but since it contains flaws, it means it cannot be used as a source to describe the divine, the same way a witness cannot be used as a witness in a court of law if he happens to have perjered/contradicted himself.

You are correct.

So, you must read between the lines.

Jesus was the first Christian, so-to-speak. He accepted that he was Christ, the Son of the true God, and nOt the son of the bible gOd. None of the apostles ever accepted Christ as Jesus accepted Christ. So all the apostles died. They are still in the world of time to this day as other personalities. Thomas will accept Christ in about 100 years.

Not one biblical scribe ever accepted that he was Christ.
So not one biblical scribe understood the gospel as it is.
Every biblical scribe understood the gospel as it was changed.
Paul understood his own gospel, but not the gospel of Jesus.

Not a single *Christian* has accepted Christ. Every Christian will deny Christ if you ask him if he is Christ. Ask a Christian three times in the dark of night if he is Christ, and he will deny it three times before the dawn of light.

As such, every Christian is a follower of Peter. No Christian has ever lived as Jesus lived. Every Christian has gone down to the grave, following Peter and Paul.

Not one person who calls himself Christian today understands what it means to be a Christian. To be a Christian is to accept Christ as who you are, as he is, and not as you would make him.

Accepting Christ as who you are is blasphemy to Christians, as it was blasphemy to the Jews. Christians deny they are Christ, and make Christ something that he is nOt. They also make Jesus something he is nOt.

A Christian will not even consider that he may be Christ. That is not even up for discussion. It is not something that is contemplated at all. But that is what Jesus contemplated and eventually accepted as the truth. And accepting the truth, Jesus represented the truth symbolically in word and deed, in parable and parody.

Every Christian denies he is Christ, and affirms s/he is a "person".
Almost everyone is denying s/he is Christ, and affirms s/he is a "person".

Regardless, the one will be saved...given time.
Time is for the salvation of the Son of God.
The prodigal son will come home.
The Son of God will be saved from the prodigal son.
There will be no more prodigal son upon his return.
There never really was.
The Son never really went anywhere.
It was just an illusion.

Christ!

 

[NeoRio1]

Quote from Barth Vader:

Hello I Am,

I have read some of your remarks / posts, and I will say you have a very unique view of biblical subject matter !

Quite frankly, I am at a loss of how to respond to your question.

Please forgive me if I am way off base, but it is hard to ascertain where your positions originate as they do not seem to fit any biblical systematic scenarios that I am aware of. Are you saying that you have some special enlightenment ?

Creation is the bedrock of G-D's activity. If you are saying that the created reality we are present in is an illusion, then I have no basis to render an answer to your question.

Respectfully

I am has to have an answer for everything.

By never giving any straight answers he can make it look like he actually has an answer for everything.

He's a philosophical ego maniac.